Mod: Bretonnia, Knights of the Grail

[Sombre]

Strategy. Sorry.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Strategy. Sorry.

Don't be sorry, for all is fair in love and grammar. The more I humiliate myself with my poor spelling, the more inclined I will be to take extra precautions to avoid it.

So let's talk strategy folks.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, so i've decided to take a look at this. I'm going to be posting piecemeal simply because its easier to comment and not have ginormous posts.

So lets start with a first blush glance at pretender strategies.

There's absolutely no need for an awake SC. Your researchers are expensive though, so early research would be good. Your sacreds could benefit from a rainbow bless or some particular deep blesses (E9 or F9 in particular). Rainbow for magic diversity (particular good E, S, and any D or F) is also a possibility.

So, we're looking at a single deep bless with good scales, or a rainbow with good scales, or an awake researcher or rainbow.

Recommended Chasses:
Female Titan - great research chassis, probably even better than the Great Sage for pure research. Eventual light SC capability.

Great Sage - researcher + rainbow (diversity/bless). Native access to S and F (CBM) a plus - F gives you fire arrows for those abundant archers.

Lady of the Lake - 100% heal afflictions means you don't need to forge the chalice for tartarians. Take her with E4N4D2 at a minimum (E for forging, N4D2 to summon Lamia Queens for a good Tart caster). S4 also recommended. Imprisoned its plausible to get decent scales and a good rainbow bless.

Enchantress - 1 pearl/turn is great. Pretty good researcher + rainbow, and great for solidifying some stronger E + S.

Mother of Rivers - A niche choice - take her awake with a few more points in water (W4 bless probably) and good scales for great early thugs due to abundant water income. (6w/trn is pretty amazing). More than W6 not recommended.

Cyclops - Great E9 bless chassis. Probably imprisoned for scales since you don't need the awake SC.

Phoenix - Good F9 bless chassis and can cast flaming arrows for you. Also has good air to get you started on air boosters (rather than waiting for an A4 on randoms).

Mother of Springs - Good pure scales choice, needs a little dom/magic improvement
Sacred Fountain - Good pure scales choice, doesn't need any other points spent on it.

Scales:
O3 - mandatory. Seriously.

Production - no less than 0 (otherwise you'll have a hard time affording your great commander choices at the start). Up to 3 recommended.

Temperature - with access to water magic there's nothing wrong with cold scales. Recommend C1 or C3 as optimal.

Growth/Death - cash + cash growth? What's not to love. Death scales are acceptable if you need the points, but its sort of like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Luck/Misfortune - You have fortune tellers, and probably need points, so Mf2 seems logical, and Mf3 might even be survivable.

Magic - Drain 2 is acceptable (your researchers are not especially efficient, but they aren't going to get killed by it). Magic is of course better, if you can find the points.

Dominion:
Cheap temples + hard to mass sacreds = low dominion is ok. Dom 4 is probably playable, Dom 5 is certainly acceptable, and more than Dom 6 is overkill.

Some builds:
The Rainbow Blesser:
Lady of the Lake, Imprisoned, Dom5 F4W4E4S4D2N4 O3Pr3C1Mf3Dr2. Options - adjust Cold/Mf/Dr to taste, you just need 6 negative scales here. Rainbow bless mostly for thugs, but also benefits use of sacreds for great early expansion and as parts of larger armies later. Also great for Tartarians later.

Research Monkey:
Female Titan, awake, Dom4 S5N3 O3Pr3C3Gr2Mf2Mg1. Options - sack growth scales to remove misfortune (imho, not worth it to improve temperature because +3% income +pop growth >> -5% income in the not-too-long term). 36RP/trn with great scales (incl +1 for Mg1).

Pure Scales:
Fountain, imprisoned, Dom4 S3 O3Pr3Gr3Lk3Mg3. Options - get some more astral by giving up Mg3 (Mg1 is perfectly good) or taking some cold scales. C1 is practically free, and C3 is still a pretty good deal.

Big Bless:
Cyclops, imprisoned, Dom4 E9 O3Pr3C3Gr3Mg1. Options - Drop 2 scales for E10 and Dom5, which is great for your mages as a bless, and not a terrible upgrade for your knights. Also, more dominion. Probably not better enough to make it worthwhile.

Turbo-Bless - for those people who salivate at the idea of excessively blessed units.
Enchantress Imprisoned Dom5 F9A1E9S2 O3C3Mf2Dr2 - Options: Can take Pr scales in return for Death scales. Has many flaws, but what do you want from something as crazy as an F9E9 bless. (Note, the druid chassis will work at the same price, but with N2 instead of S2, no A1, and no s/trn.)

Geez, that was a ginormous post anyway. Whoops...

[Trumanator]

Honestly, I think an F bless is actually fairly suboptimal, particularly the full 9 bless. If you need magic weapons you can use the grail heroes. If you want a big bless, E9 N? seems like the best option to me. 1 regen might seem small, but when you combine it with the awe and 20+ prot, it increases survivability significantly, and really cuts down on the afflictions. Also, I really hate to go imprisoned if you took E on your pretender, since you're going to want hammers badly for mass thuggery.

Note- Just because the LotL has 100 heal doesn't mean she can heal tarts. Only the chalice and GoH can do that, as they're undead.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Trumanator

Note- Just because the LotL has 100 heal doesn't mean she can heal tarts. Only the chalice and GoH can do that, as they're undead.

Really? I'm not doubting you, but how is GoH healing them any more thematic than someone with the healer skill? Gifting health to the undead? Really?

Also, the Lady of the Lake's flavor text says she *has* the chalice. She should certainly work like she does or the text should be changed.

[Squirrelloid]

So, the grail hero theory wasn't working especially well for me for a couple of reasons. (1) Grail heroes success rates weren't as stellar as i hoped. I took crippling injuries occasionally to really silly things, and lost to indies i probably shouldn't have. I'll try it again, but thus far not impressed by them naked. (2) It eats the commander buy from the capitol every turn until you get a new fortress up. Seriously uncool.

Works really well for expansion: ~20 archers + ~equal numbers of men at arms kills many independents surprisingly well, especially if you do something really weird like put your lord right behind your troops (yeah, not way at the back, weird) and use his banner to reinforce morale (or just have a KotR or two around). And your casualties tend to be purely men at arms, which a lord can replace, so you can field supply at least your first army. And yes, that's right, your starting army + a handful of archers can expand. Crazy.

After that you're going to want to use indie commanders as your troops leader, because the goal here is to free up that valuable commander buy in your capitol for researchers. Especially that juicy 10RP cap-only mage that you want to start buying every turn ASAP. When those indie commanders burn out their army's expansion pretender, they should build a fortress. *Now* you have somewhere to recruit those Bretonnian Lords and Grail Heroes and whatnot you want.

"I still can't use all my cash" - buy Grail Knights (you have some sort of bless, right?), KotR (and sprinkle them around - if Burnsaber is right, and i haven't checked - every 2 let you increase the tax level 1 step with no unrest! Sold!) Also, it would be useful to know if they provide the benefit the turn you buy them, because that way you could do clever things like instantly bump your capitol taxes to 110% without patrolling, and just buy 2 KotR.

Edit: I am a little disappointed the archers don't have longbows. I mean, their precision sucks, and it should, but in WH they have longbows.

[Trumanator]

I'm not really buying into the Grail Hero expansion either, I'm just saying that in the extremely rare circumstances you need magic weapons, they can do the job 90% of the time. Everything else, I pretty much agree with you, though I hadn't thought of sprinkling Kotr around to up income.

As far as GoH and tarts go, well, thematic or not thats the mechanic, and I don't _think_ you can mod the LotL to actually have the chalice, however cool that would be.

[Squirrelloid]

wow, that's quite the typo i made, and i can't understand how i did that.

In: "When those indie commanders burn out their army's expansion pretender", replace 'pretender' with 'potential'. Oops.

[Squirrelloid]

Ok, the magnitude of their unrest reduction seems to be different than what burnsaber is advocating. Taxing at 120% with ~10 KotR present (and no patrolling) i'm at a steady state 2 unrest. Based on burnsaber's statement, 4 should be able to keep 120% taxation at 0 unrest.

[Radio_Star]

What settings are you using for expansion tests with the Heroes?