OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by lch

Let me just disagree with you here as a good christian: I believe that Jesus was God's prophet and the messias. I do not believe that Jesus was God, became God at any time or is God. I do not believe in Hell and eternal damnation. Being christian is multi-faceted and I don't think that catholics are better christians just because they have the cooler hats and rituals.

Christians have many doctrinal disputes among us -- baptism, Holy Communion, church authority, etcetera -- but there are also central truths that must be held in common. The divinity of Christ is one such truth. If Jesus is not God, then why be Christian?

Jesus Himself claimed to be God. He claimed His divinity repeatedly and forcefully. In the end, that's why the Sanhedrin had Him killed. If He wasn't God, then Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic. If He was a liar, then He was a particularly vile liar, because those lies have deceived countless people over the centuries. If He was a lunatic, then He was like one of those seriously-deranged people who needs heavy meds to keep out of trouble. Either way, Jesus would not be God's prophet, because God wouldn't speak His words through lies or insane ramblings.

Jesus claimed the prerogatives of God. He claimed to forgive sins, even when He was not the injured party. How can a mere man, even a prophet, claim to forgive sins against others? If I sin against you, you can forgive me. But if I sin against a complete stranger, and you still forgive me, by what right would you offer that forgiveness? (And wouldn't it seem arrogant?) Forgiving sins only makes sense if Jesus Himself was injured by our sins -- all of our sins -- and that only makes sense if He is God.

Let me be quick to clarify: You are free to believe whatever you believe, and you don't owe me any answers. If you would entertain my questions, I would appreciate your attention. I have been a non-Christian. Now I am a Christian. (Not Catholic, by the way, although I have a great respect for the Catholic Church.) In all of that, I simply don't see a way to be a Christian who rejects the divinity of Jesus.

---

PS: Plain honesty requires me to identify CS Lewis as the inspiration for much of my argument in this post. His book Mere Christianity explains much of these points, and I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in an intellectual approach to the Christian faith.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Personally I'm an atheist, unfortunately. I believe I would feel better if I found God. Unfortunately I find it unlikely that I will find any god, unless I'm directly approached by God.

Thanks for your openness. May I ask: Why would you feel better if you found God? Is something missing that you believe that God could provide, if you could only find Him?

I can't speak for other gods, but I can tell you that God works through His people. If you want to find God, go spend some time with a Christian whom you know and respect.

Of course, it's tricky to pick the right one. As a very wise man once said:
"The best thing about Christianity is Christians. The worst thing about Christianity is Christians."

We can be a very motley crew. Still, there are some good-hearted Christians in the world, and I'm willing to bet that there's (at least) one good-hearted Christian who will be happy to help you in your search for God.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

Later on I have tended to appreciate christianity more. Mostly since I view the core functional message of christianity as being: Just be gentle and love everyone.

While that message is certainly one of Christ's teachings, it isn't the core message of Christianity. Many other great teachers and wise men have told us to be nice to one another, and it hasn't stuck all that well.

The core message of Christianity is that you can't do it. Thankfully, you don't have to do it. Christ offers to do it through you. Christians don't love other people in order to please Jesus. (When we're loving, that is....) Christians love other people because Jesus lives inside us, and His love shines through us.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

In a way I am partial to institutionalized religion, where there is a TRUTH. If there is a God , there is a truth, and thus there should be a great plan for life, society and the world. Thus I consider fundamentalists right on Gods track.

Good points.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

On the other hand I'm quite opposed to fundamentalist teachings, since I find them opposed to some of the values I adhere to. Mainly because of the interpretation of what the TRUTH is. Anyone who claims to know a truth is a potentially dangerous man. I dislike truth. That makes me a postmodernist. I strongly dislike postmodernists.

You're a post-modernist, and yet you strongly dislike post-modernists? Wow, that must be interesting.

Post-modernism is a self-defeating philosophy. The moment that you claim that there is no such thing as absolute truth, you have made a claim that you believe to be absolutely true. It's serious doublethink. It's like saying, "Everything I say is a lie." But if everything is a lie, then that statement must be a lie, which would mean that not every statement I say is a lie.....

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

I view religion a as a tool that should guide and aid people respect and love others, aid people in trouble, inspire people to aid and help and build and compose and do good stuff to others and society.

No, that's ethics. Ethics without religion is perfectly plausible. You don't need God to do all of those good things you mentioned.

Religion is about humanity trying to meet God.
Christianity is about God coming to be with His people.

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

My problem is that I want religion to be something else than I want my own devotion to be, should I become religious.

I'm not sure that I'm understanding you here. What is the difference between your own devotion and what you want religion to be?

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

I should go for messiah-hood. That would solve my problems.
I'm actually halfway there. I already have students calling me Jesus, even yelling 'hello Jesus' from the other side of the street the other day. I had to smile

Does that mean that you have a beard? You can't be Jesus without a beard, you know.

Gandalf's avatar makes me think that he looks a little like the stereotypical Jesus....

[thejeff]

With all due respect to CS Lewis, the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument falls apart if you do not accept the Bible as, at least, a fairly accurate description of Jesus's ministry.
If you do accept the Bible's claims then there is little point in making the argument. If not, then the argument falls apart: perhaps he never claimed divinity.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Edratman

If there be an infinite Being, he does not need our help -- we need not waste our energies in his defense.

You posted a lot of quotations, but I wanted to respond to this one. It reminded me of a passage from Acts 5:33-39:

When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

You go, Rabbi!

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by thejeff

With all due respect to CS Lewis, the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument falls apart if you do not accept the Bible as, at least, a fairly accurate description of Jesus's ministry.
If you do accept the Bible's claims then there is little point in making the argument. If not, then the argument falls apart: perhaps he never claimed divinity.

That's true as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

If you reject the Bible, why would you believe that Jesus was a prophet of God? For that matter, why would you believe that Jesus was anyone special at all?

Perhaps one would choose to accept parts of the Bible, but not others. For obvious reasons, I think that approach is fatally flawed. Still, let's accept it for now. If you want to accept parts of the Bible, but not other parts, then how do you choose which parts? The divinity of Jesus is a central theme of Scripture, from Genesis right through Revelation. Christ's place as the second Person of the Trinity is not merely a side-issue; it's the core issue.

As I wrote, I understand other doctrinal disputes. I started my Christian walk in a Lutheran church. Lutherans are a sacramental denomination who practice infant baptism. Now I'm a Southern Baptist, and we don't baptize babies. I can see arguments in Scripture for both positions, and I truly wish that Christians would not divide ourselves over it. (For the most part, we don't, but there are always exceptions.) We can disagree over these points of doctrine, and the core truths of Christianity are not threatened.

If Jesus was merely a prophet, there's no point in Christianity. A prophet can't save you from your sins. He can't heal your broken spirit. He can't walk with you throughout your life. And he can't bring you into Heaven when you die. Only God can do that.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Although you may not care, no matter how much you reject Him, He still wants you. He's funny that way. I know that I won't ever convince you via online debate, but I pray that you will be open to Him one day.

Shalom!

And it is for this reason that if he is the all loving, and all forgiving source of goodness that is claimed - that he will not cast me into some lake of fire to be tortured for all of eternity.

For the record, I am not wealthy, and I am not highly educated. I was born into poverty, and to this day, it is in poverty that I dwell. I have little to be thankful for in this life - in this nation - which is ruled by and large by those claiming the Christian faith, who work tirelessly to accumulate wealth and power at the expense of the citizens. I have been harmed more by Christians, and helped more by atheists in my lifetime, and that is my evidence - my testament to the effectiveness of the gospel.

[lch]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Christians have many doctrinal disputes among us -- baptism, Holy Communion, church authority, etcetera -- but there are also central truths that must be held in common. The divinity of Christ is one such truth. If Jesus is not God, then why be Christian?

Why does he need to be God? Everything works out perfectly fine without that. I do believe that Jesus has ascended and that there is a trinity in spirit, if that's the right word, but I don't agree that God and Jesus are the same entity. And I don't believe in the virgin birth either. I think that's not that uncommon, and that's what I meant when I referring to catholics where they have a big cult around the holy Madonna, but this would then be a problem for me if I wanted to believe that Jesus is/was God. How and when did he become God? I'd consider it blasphemy that a man can become God, and that God becomes a man as well. I have to say that I connect a lot more with the Old Testament than with the New Testament, by the way.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Jesus Himself claimed to be God. He claimed His divinity repeatedly and forcefully. In the end, that's why the Sanhedrin had Him killed. If He wasn't God, then Jesus was either a liar or a lunatic. If He was a liar, then He was a particularly vile liar, because those lies have deceived countless people over the centuries. If He was a lunatic, then He was like one of those seriously-deranged people who needs heavy meds to keep out of trouble. Either way, Jesus would not be God's prophet, because God wouldn't speak His words through lies or insane ramblings.

As I said before, I don't take the bible literally. Partly because what I read in the bible has gone through at least two translations of different languages and has been written down years after it happened, a generation later, but that's not my point. And I don't want to set at defiance the rigorous work of the people who did the transcriptions and translations. Jesus has often been speaking in similes. Jesus Christ is holy, that is without question, but I do not believe that he is God. Just out of curiosity, if you believe that Jesus and God is the same, or at least that he forcefully claimed that, then why would he despair on the cross and call to God, asking why he had forsaken him?

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

For the record, I am not wealthy, and I am not highly educated. I was born into poverty, and to this day, it is in poverty that I dwell. I have little to be thankful for in this life - in this nation - which is ruled by and large by those claiming the Christian faith, who work tirelessly to accumulate wealth and power at the expense of the citizens. I have been harmed more by Christians, and helped more by atheists in my lifetime, and that is my evidence - my testament to the effectiveness of the gospel.

To clarify, the existence of bad behavior among Christians -- or even bad Christians -- does not disprove the Gospel. After all, there is plenty of greed, hatred, jealousy, and strife among non-believers. Sanctification is a long, slow process for most of us. Jesus is making us perfect (as He wants to make you perfect), but He surely takes His time in doing it.

That said, Jesus told His followers that other people should know us by the love that we show. To whatever extent you have suffered at the hands of Christians, Jesus would not approve of your ill treatment. As a member of the Body of Christ, I am connected to those who have hurt you, and I am sorry for it.

[thejeff]

Agreed in general. I'm not a Christian, as you may have gathered. I do not accept the Bible as any form of revealed truth or however you wish to phrase it.

I don't believe Jesus was a prophet of God. I don't really believe much of anything about Jesus. And as I understand the Liar, Lunatic or Lord argument, it's not aimed at Christians (or those claiming to be Christian if you wish) who don't believe Jesus was divine. It's aimed at unbelievers. It's a good argument if you accept the premises, but those who accept the premise are likely to already believe the conclusion.

Jesus's divinity is a core issue of your interpretation of Scripture, not of every ones. Most Jews, at least, would deny that the divinity of Jesus is a central theme of the Old Testament. That belief wasn't settled, although widespread, even among Christians until several hundred years after his death. Nor was any such theme evident beforehand - Jewish Messiah expectations, which certainly existed, were much more secular and nationalistic than the later Christian interpretations of the same passages.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by lch

Why does he need to be God? Everything works out perfectly fine without that.

God alone has the power to forgive sins. Without that power, Jesus wouldn't be much good as a Savior.

Originally Posted by lch

I do believe that Jesus has ascended and that there is a trinity in spirit, if that's the right word, but I don't agree that God and Jesus are the same entity.

Jesus (God the Son) is not the same entity as God the Father. They are both members of the Godhead, but they are different from each other. Three persons, one God.

That's why the Holy Trinity is such an essential piece of Christian doctrine. Without a clear understanding of the Trinity (as much as humans can ever understand it), we would be forever confused about God.

Originally Posted by lch

And I don't believe in the virgin birth either. I think that's not that uncommon, and that's what I meant when I referring to catholics where they have a big cult around the holy Madonna, but this would then be a problem for me if I wanted to believe that Jesus is/was God.

To be fair, the Catholic Church doesn't encourage or require any Cult of the Madonna. But yeah, plenty of actual Catholics seem to go overboard in their devotion for Mary. All I can do is to point to the official Catholic teaching, which does not encourage such behavior. Mary was a special person, and God chose her for a unique role to bear His Son ... but Mary was still a human being.

Originally Posted by lch

How and when did he become God? I'd consider it blasphemy that a man can become God, and that God becomes a man as well. I have to say that I connect a lot more with the Old Testament than with the New Testament, by the way.

Jesus was always God. He didn't "become" God. All the way back in Genesis, when God spoke the world into being, His Word was Jesus. That's the point that John makes in the first chapter of his Gospel:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

It goes back to the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus has always been God the Son, along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by lch

As I said before, I don't take the bible literally. Partly because what I read in the bible has gone through at least two translations of different languages and has been written down years after it happened, a generation later, but that's not my point. And I don't want to set at defiance the rigorous work of the people who did the transcriptions and translations. Jesus has often been speaking in similes. Jesus Christ is holy, that is without question, but I do not believe that he is God.

I won't address the reliability of Scripture, but only because I've already spent so much time writing about it on this thread.

If you don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, what do you believe about it? Are some parts true and other parts false? How do you know which are which?

Also, as I mentioned before, the divinity of Jesus is one of the major themes of Scripture. You'd have to do away with an awful lot of the Bible to get around it....

Originally Posted by lch

Just out of curiosity, if you believe that Jesus and God is the same, or at least that he forcefully claimed that, then why would he despair on the cross and call to God, asking why he had forsaken him?

Back to the doctrine of the Trinity. God the Son (Jesus) became sin on our behalf. As He hung on the Cross, He became the sins of the entire human race. As God is holy, He cannot be in communion with sin. For those agonizing moments, the eternal unity between the Father and the Son was interrupted, and the Father turned His back on the Son. When it was finished, Jesus said so [John 19:30], and then He surrendered His spirit to the Father's care [Luke 23:46]. The Father and the Son were in unity once more, never to be separated again.

By the way, that was perhaps the ultimate punishment of the Cross: Jesus endured separation from God, which is the fitting punishment for all of us. Because He took it for us, we don't ever have to suffer that horrible separation. We can be united with God -- all three Persons -- forever.