Blood?

Blood magic as a whole is nearly useless in a small map or short game. That is more of a production war.

Where it really shines is the mid to late game. As should be seen.

[Jasper]

Alex's opinion mirrors mine exactly, so I won't repeat it. IMHO several of the people who don't think Ice Devils are effective are misusing them (trying to take on large mage backed armies alone) or misequipping them (missing regeneration rings or antimagic amulets). These details make all the difference.

In response to Keir, no I haven't played Ice Devils competitively myself, but I have faced them. Without paralyzation it was not so easy to fight them as people suggest. Large mage backed armies are fairly easy for IDs to avoid -- but cost more than IDs and are less mobile. Such armies are also severely curtailed once Murdering Winter is in use.

[Jasper]

I guess what I'm getting at is that IMHO IDs were clearly the most powerfull tactic in Dom 1, and the burden of proof IMHO is heavily upon those who would claim they're ineffective in Dom 2.

More expensive? Less Effective? Sure. Ineffective? IMHO hardly.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I guess what I'm getting at is that IMHO IDs were clearly the most powerfull tactic in Dom 1,

As you never used them competetively this is a strange claim and I think its wrong - Air elementals made ID's look tame. Seasonal spirits could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much. ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get. Seasonal spirits and air elementals were absolute massacre material and affected play far more than ID's in my experiance. Seasonal Spirits defined dom1 play for me.

Alex I have a fairly good idea how to use ID's in dom1 and have used them just as you say (I was following your advice) and early on I followed your and others advice that they were insanely poweful and you only needed one to kill an enemy army/conquer a province - only it didn't work. After losing my first 4 in PBEM I used them in packs and they kicked butt. I think there was a good degree of sensationalism about ID's based on peoples very real and horrible experiances facing 4+ in one army. I have never found single SC's to be a signifcant threat to a main army. They are more use raiding and even then can die to bad luck. Just having two makes it a heap safer.

You posted your ideas on what a killer SC was Alex and people wrote back saying they tried it and did ok for awhile and then got unlucky. I tried your ideas in Dom1 Alex and kept losing the pretender. I remember one idea you had for a quick start using the Earth Mother and some black plate. I tried and and she died relatively early. I have always though you must be a dedicated, and skilled, gambler with your love of SC's. As the game goes on it becomes easier and easier to get unlucky and I'm not prepared to take that risk. I tried and others tried against me and I am convinced its not worth the all your eggs in one basket risk involved. Give your opponent a heap of threats and targets is my approach and was in dom1. Its just alot more flexible.

As for having plenty of mages in armies I generally did this in Dom1 - HI are gold cheap mages are resource cheap. Basis of much dominions play. I remember being told how nasty Lammashta's are just before an opponent tried them on me and guess what - they got bLasted off the battle field and only did damage when he found my scout - damage to him. A well balenced army in Dom1 or 2 is the best thing and ss the game goes on that can include multiple SC's. If you want you can run around with single ultra expensively equipped SC's but opponents I have played doing this have mainly been gifting me magic items though they often take a few provinces before I nail them. I got to kill an equiped Moloch twice in one game and helped equipped my ID's from the loot.

Sure Blood is good in a longer MM intensive game suited to those younger, or with more stamina or whatever it takes, than me. However I miss blood. It used to be useable from very early and I wish it still was. Sure this is my experiance and others playing slower games have a different experiance.

You pay for those blood skills even if you don't get any use out of them. What I want is to be able to get use out of blood playing Dom the way I do. This is a natural enough desire to want to get to make the most of my bag of toys.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

>A good army (including mages generally) will crush a small number of fully equipped SC's in my experiance. And this isn't even taking paralyse into account.

In Dom1? You'd better cross your fingers on those mages.

No I gave them protection. Sure the cost was significant but not crushing and they only need the protective items vs other nations so you can use them fairly safely vs indies until the magic itmes arrive

I played the ID's before turn 10 races in Dom1 and they were nowhere near as powerful as the other races I played. Its just not worth the expense until you can equip the ID's so you need to get your gem income going by searching etc. Same as the mages need to get protection but in the meanwhile the mages are still great helping conquering indies and don't need protective items for this.

I'll just repeat the point in my other post - want Dom1 fast monstrosities then look no furhur than Seasonal spirits and Air elemntals. ID's didn't compete in that role - however later they rocked.

The big problem with ID's in Dom1 was not the power of 1 ID but the power of 1 ID a turn - and that was achievable by about turn 20. That is why I stress the issue of quantity.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>Air elementals
>Seasonal spirits

These certainly were two other very potent Dom1 paths. Both got ripped to shreds in Dom2, so what is your complaint in relation to ID's in Dom2.

All three strong strategies got nerfed. I don't see what you are complaining about.


>could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much.

Not in my experience.


>ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get.


They were good without items... just BETTER with.


>Alex I have a fairly good idea how to use ID's in dom1 and have used them just as you say (I was following your advice) and early on I followed your and others advice that they were insanely poweful and you only needed one to kill an enemy army/conquer a province - only it didn't work.


If you didn't get ID's to work then you were doing something wrong (in Dom1). I'm sorry, you can complain until blue in the face, but it won't make them any less abusive in Dom1, nor will you convince people to make them cheaper in Dom2. Feel free to try, but you're just spinning your wheels.


>After losing my first 4 in PBEM I used them in packs and they kicked butt.


If you were losing ID's often, then you either had outragously bad luck, were putting them into bad battles, or were under equipping them.


>I think there was a good degree of sensationalism about ID's based on peoples very real and horrible experiances facing 4+ in one army.

The bad experiences with them went well beyond that.


>I have never found single SC's to be a signifcant threat to a main army.

"Main Army"? As in what? The biggest enemy stack including mages? Of course you don't send the ID after that. Use some common sense.


>They are more use raiding

BINGO!


>and even then can die to bad luck.

As can most anything.


>You posted your ideas on what a killer SC was


Actually I have never posted any "killer SC's", I have only posted SC ideas to help others get started or gain some insight into how to make their own.


>and people wrote back saying they tried it and did ok for awhile and then got unlucky.

Some. What do you expect? I never said that supercombatants were invincible. In fact I have gone out of my way to help people deal with them.


>I tried your ideas in Dom1 Alex and kept losing the pretender.

You lost a pretender! Shocking!

Seriously Keir, I'm pretty clear when describing my suggestions. Did I say "Do this and your pretender will be invincible"? Or was it more like "Try this and it will aid your initial expansion"?


>I remember one idea you had for a quick start using the Earth Mother and some black plate. I tried and and she died relatively early.

Try again. I never suggested black plate. It would fatigue the Great Mother too much, which is already an issue for her. The Great Mother doesn't need armor since she can cast ironskin or invulnerability.


>I have always though you must be a dedicated, and skilled, gambler with your love of SC's.

In Dom1 there was no gamble.
In Dom2 there is more danger, but it's still worthwhile.


>I tried and others tried against me and I am convinced its not worth the all your eggs in one basket risk involved.

I never put all my eggs in one basket. SC's are just one of many tools.


>Give your opponent a heap of threats and targets is my approach and was in dom1. Its just alot more flexible.

Hrm... you mean something along the lines of flying 7 ID's into my enemies territory?

I assure you that my play style is all about the "heap of threats".


>I remember being told how nasty Lammashta's are just before an opponent tried them on me and guess what - they got bLasted off the battle field and only did damage when he found my scout - damage to him.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning this... however Lammashta's are tricky to use. Sometimes they can be used to tremendous effect. Other times not. If I were you I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly.


>If you want you can run around with single ultra expensively equipped SC's but opponents I have played doing this have mainly been gifting me magic items though they often take a few provinces before I nail them.

Have I or anyone else every suggested that anyone set-up a "single ultra expensively equipped SC"?

You are reading more into what has been written than was there.


>What I want is to be able to get use out of blood playing Dom the way I do.


While I have no issue with players making suggestions, you can't expect Illwinter to alter the game just to accomodate a playing style that is near unique to you.

I suggest that you wait for the mod software, and make yourself a "Blood magic works fast, so I can play quick games abusing that one facet of the game" mod.

[Bowlingballhead]

I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
As you never used them competetively this is a strange claim and I think its wrong - Air elementals made ID's look tame. Seasonal spirits could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much. ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get. Seasonal spirits and air elementals were absolute massacre material and affected play far more than ID's in my experiance. Seasonal Spirits defined dom1 play for me.

Both air elementals and seasonal spirits had easy and effective counters if you were prepared. In my experience they weren't even in the same league as IDs, which didn't really have a powerfull and cost effective counter.

IMHO Air elementals and Seasonals were in practice only really nasty against new players who hadn't considered their effectiveness. Their window of effectiveness was brief, whereas Ice Devils were effective for the rest of the game.

Moreover, equipped Ice Devils were only a few turns slower than Seasonals due to ramping research totals. IMHO your claim about "the game being over" before IDs is exaggeration. Equipped Ice Devils cost roughly as much as two castings of Summer Lions, and would mop the floor with them -- plus they could lead, cast spells, and generate gems. Well worth waiting a bit for IMHO.

[Truper]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself.

IMHO it's worth pointing out that Truper lost in his example because he made several mistakes. He had the wrong equipment on his Ice Devil for the task, and sat still for several turns while his opponent brought in an appropriate counter.

In particular Wraith Swords don't work against 0 encumberance undead, Ice Devils can cast Quickness without needing 10 gems for boots, and one can expect the possibility of Mandragoras from C'tis and prepare with higher MR.

Even still it looks to me like he lost due to bad luck, as his Magic Resistance and defense should have been high enough to be mostly immune to Sleep Vines.

---

IMHO its worth pointing out that Bowlingballhead was probably referring to "I am of the opinion that SCs are fun, but I think I'd ignore them if I were trying to maximize my efficiency, rather than my fun quotient" when he said that he couldn't have put it better.

Wraith Swords work particularly well against the various sorts of lizards C'tis could be expected to, and did, send along with its Manakins. Having boots saves a round (or half a round depending on how you look at it) and 20 fatigue, both of which are valuable if the ID does happen to face the 0 encumberence undead before anything else. Rainbow Armor increases magic resistance, as well as providing reinvigoration, and so is quite valuable preparation if facing sleep vines.

The only real point to the anecdote was to provide an example of the many cheap and effective counters to large and expensive monsters which abound in Dominions.

[ January 08, 2004, 14:58: Message edited by: Truper ]

[Jasper]

You could have done better than the situation you described. For example seizing rather than yielding the initiative, skipping the Boots of Quickness, having an Antimagic Amulet, a Regeneration Ring, and/or a Luck Pendent. Facing C'tis I'd also consider replacing the Wraith Sword with some one handed weapon and either a Vine|Char|Luck shield.

Everyone makes mistakes, no big deal, but IMHO subpar play doesn't make for a good example of the (supposed) weakness of Super Combatants, nor does it support your opinion that SCs are not efficient.

As a side note, casting quickness costs an Ice Devil much less than 20 fatigue, and is well worth the 10 gem savings. Winged or Messenger Boots are much better for IDs than Quickness boots.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Jasper ]