So how 'bout those Mets?

[johan osterman]

Or that some of the people with an agenda against him went "beyond the pale". I certainly don't think you (as the host) had anything to do with it.

But something irks me, from a logical point of view. Supposedly Norfleet had _17_ dwarven hammers on turn 22 or 23. To me, that's nuts - maybe at turn 40, or 60, someone might have use for 17 hammers.

But at turn 23, it's conspicuously wasteful - you can't _use_ that many hammers, even if the cost of creating them was negligible. That's something fishy, to me.

It seems just as likely to me, that someone figured out how to cheat and used that to frame Norfleet in so hugely blatant and obvious a way that he could start calling out, in what was for him an oddly reasonable tone of voice, "Say, partner, can you explain what I think I see here?"

Knowing the forged evidence is so damning that the jury will already have decided to hang, no matter the explanation : "I don't know how those stolen cattle got into my pen. The 17 dwarven sheep in the bedroom? No sense even talking about them."

As I say - given the animosities involved, this seems as credible as someone going so far off the deep end as to actually forge 17 dwarven hammers while cheating. (If you're capable of cheating so massively on gems - _WHY_ do you need all the hammers?)

Another fishy thing, from another game : How does an artifact (the Holy Grail) simply disappear from the magic item stash, with a message saying "Suddenly the Chalice was not found in the laboratory anymore".

No need to go all conspiracy minded. The simpler explanation is that Norfleet either hacked the files or used some sort of glitch he discovered, which would be tantamount to cheating. Add to the submitted files that Norfleet has, on more than one occasion I believe, triggered the cheat protections in the game, and also to my knowledge he is one of the very few if not the only forum acitve player that has done this in MP. While it is not irrefutably certain that he did cheat I think it is by far the most likely and obvious explanation.

The chalice dissappeared because the knights of the chalice came and quested for it.

[archaeolept]

heh, nah I don't care. Dom II is filled w/ such a bunch of curmudgeons that such things as apologies or thanks are generally rarer than hens' teeth in a disco.

I don't feel that moderation, and public feedback on the issues was that stellar, but whatever. Illwinter hasn't been ignoring the problems, obviously, and deserve respect for their hard work, and for the even more work they'll be doing in the future.

lol, nothing like. however, the "teachers" in this case actively worked to dismiss the concerns of the students, and put forth as if there were no problem. Have you forgotten the discussions on VQs, on clams, on castling? My own experience is that any concerns I had were dismissed by mods because i "must just be a newbie", and incompetent, if I couldn't deal w/ VQ's or castles...

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever. If someone else replaces it, if suddenly Tauren13 starts beating everyone with Lord of the Gates and Stingers, we're not going to use the logical thinking that he must be cheating and take the concerns of what the issues are (I.E. Lord of the Gates and Stingers) for their value in standard game, not some sort of cheating game.

obviously something was broken, but there was not even a hint of acknowledgement of that fact.

And it was exactly the opposite of what people said "The VQ is broken" and not "Norfleet is cheating with the VQ". In such discussions, newbies were coming up with their own horror stories of getting beat by one handed Vampires with oodles of clams saying it was fact. Maybe an investigation should be done by anyone who stood on the 'pro-nerf' side of the fence of anything, yeah? Damn cheaters.

the real discussions, and work, concerning what was going on certainly seemed to have taken place completely outside of the teachers' lounge, which to all appearances was rather out of touch. As is the way such things often go.

Then the VQ wouldn't have been balanced as it was, for the reasonings that it was. Clams wouldn't have been disregarded as "Something that can be exploited, if you have exactly the right circumstances" and Castles would all cost 600 Gold, yes?

The price of using such broad statements is you tend to selectively forget the past conversations and reasons why things were done or in this case, not done.

[Gandalf Parker]

heh, nah I don't care. Dom II is filled w/ such a bunch of curmudgeons that such things as apologies or thanks are generally rarer than hens' teeth in a disco.

I don't feel that moderation, and public feedback on the issues was that stellar, but whatever. Illwinter hasn't been ignoring the problems, obviously, and deserve respect for their hard work, and for the even more work they'll be doing in the future.

No it wasnt stellar. They cant participate in these discussions the way that we can. The developers tend to make 1 answer in a thread and then a few pages later people are complaining that the devs are clueless about it even though nothing was said to change the first answer. Beta tester responses are abit more frequent. And of course the most numerous come from the player-tester folks which are appreciated.

[archaeolept]

lol, as I remember, the "selective forgetting" has more been a policy of this forum, through the wholesale deleting of Posts it does not like.

It was clear to many that something or things were broken. The general response from the forum old guard was to stick fingers in their ears. I certainly couldn't tell if norfleet was hacking files, or if clamming were absurdly abusable, or what exactly. But there was certainly something broken, yet that was actively denied by those who should have remained neutral in the discussions then.

turn files were certainly available to anyone who wished to see what all the fuss was about. I know I didn't refuse any requests to examine them.

Again, I'm glad that some sort of resolution has been achieved. I certainly hope that illwinter is able to figure out a tougher security regimen. However, until then i'm not about to stop playing.

No it wasnt stellar. They cant participate in these discussions the way that we can

actually i wasn't referring to the devs, who, while remaining distant from the fray, certainly evidenced to me a genuine interest in the apparent problems on our part.

No, the reason it was dismissed was because there was no proven factual information in it. The tiring "Norfleet beat me with X and I don't think that is fare" is not a good enough excuse, ever

again, turn files were available. It was dismissed out of arrogance. No one ever simply made a complaint "oh noes I was beaten that's not possible", but rather wondered how such vast resources were possible w/out a bug or broken game mechanic. People who used the word "broken" were told off in no uncertain terms by Moderators of this forum. Now, that is a fact. I would reccomend rereading some of Rabe's insightful and informative Posts on the VQ issue, for instance.

[Truper]

I thought you were smarter than that. Norfleet was in fact a well worn topic of discussion in the dominions developer forum. And in the shrapnel Moderators forum. Norfleet had sanctions against him and a watchful eye on his actions well before Stormbinder started being so loud. You sound like a high school kid who is mad that he doesnt know what goes on in the teachers lounge.

And so we come to the most patronizing comment yet. "Trust us kiddies, even though we grownups have made no mention in any public place that there has been a problem here at school, rest assured that we in our wisdom have taken steps to insure your safety and well-being. It is not for you to know what's being done, or even that anything is being done, just trust us and everything will be fine. Now just run along and go play in the schoolyard, while we get back to our serious buisiness in the teachers lounge."

It has of course been possible to read between the lines of various occurances in the forums, the patches and elsewhere to infer that there is a real problem, and that things have been done about it, but to my mind an explicit statement from Illwinter and/or Shrapnel acknowledging that a problem exists and stating that solutions are being investegated is not too much to ask for. Since such a statement has never been made, its understandable that some have reached the conclusion that the powers that be have their head in the sand.

lol, as I remember, the "selective forgetting" has more been a policy of this forum, through the wholesale deleting of Posts it does not like.

Perhaps a policy of active readers or posters. As for wholesale deletion of Posts? Are you reading the same board as I am? As far as I know, post deletion is the very Last method of moderation that is ever taken and it's not taken lightly. Most often it/they are moved to the moderator forum for viewing of not only other Moderators but administrators. In my time here, I have only deleted a handful of individual Posts and I believe only one thread that was not requested. I have however, had to edit numerous Posts, give plenty of warning PM's and in general wonder at the maturity of people as they get worked up about a /game/.

It was clear to many that something or things were broken. The general response from the forum old guard was to stick fingers in their ears. I certainly couldn't tell if norfleet was hacking files, or if clamming were absurdly abusable, or what exactly. But there was certainly something broken, yet that was actively denied by those who should have remained neutral in the discussions then.

It has been said I don't know how many times for people to send their files to info@illwinter.com for any kind of hokiness. If you didn't get that memo, there isn't much I can do. Actively denied that someone was cheating? I can't remember much of the discussion off hand, but I believe any allusions to 'cheating' were not very prominant and the only instance of it that really cropped up was in Stormbinder's GG game, where much of the general populace doesn't consider 'Playing under another name and denying it if questioned' cheating.

I don't remember any Posts saying "Norfleet hacked the game" but instead said "X is overpowered because Norfleet keeps beating me with it".

Again, I'm glad that some sort of resolution has been achieved. I certainly hope that illwinter is able to figure out a tougher security regimen. However, until then i'm not about to stop playing.

If anything that is all that has been done, maybe more priority given to what was already something that was being pursued (cheat prevention that is). I would hope noone would stop playing, and I would also hope that everyone won't go *** crazy every time they are getting beat in a game and start accusing people of cheating. But if you do think you are, you always have the option of either figuring it out on your own (via your own methods) or sending it to IW for a looksie.

[johan osterman]

I also want to point out that if the part of Kristoffers mail that Cainhill quoted is all that Stormbinder posted, the mail has recieved some editing before being quoted. I was reading over Kristoffers shoulder when he wrote it and the original tone of the letter was not intended to be congratulatory but to say 'you were right, it is there for everyone to see, be satisfied with that and move on' in response to Stormbinder feeling that Norfleet got the Last word when the thread was locked, I think the parts of the mail posted skewes the tone of it somewhat.

[archaeolept]

^^ heh lol. that's not completely surprising either

[Vicious Love]

Not to start yet another flamelest, but I'm constantly astonished by just how ingrateful we can seem at times. Honestly, the Dom 2 team, which is just barely large enough to be called that, has done more for the fanbase than any major game corporation. Clearly, this game is a Derek Smartesque labor of love.
Honestly, before we start making demands and accusations, I suggest we contemplate how anyone could put so much effort into a game, and still take the time to pander to the fans at every other turn.