OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.(Edited2)

[Jack Simth]

Narf:
I can see why you might want the characters a little in advance: balancing the campaign. You don't want a situation where my character casting Ghost Hand completely negates the puzzle you spent an hour laying out. Likewise, you don't usually want to include a puzzle/encounter that isn't solveable with the skillset available. Having the characters initial state available in the initial planning stages allows for eliminating both extremes.

As for your character, depending on what Eorg decides to go with, it might be better for you to pick a rouge. So far, the list is:

Alneyan: Sorceror(Wizard?)
Jack Simth: Bard
Eorg: Fighter(?)/Wizard(?)

So we have a spellcaster, and someone who can pick up a healing spell after a level. If Eorg picks Fighter, all that's needed to round out the skill set is a Rouge (for the traps). Also, the "creeping rouge" issue matters a lot less if it is the DM's filler character who is afflicted.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

True, I could go rogue. Eorg? Class?

Creeping rogue?

Oh, don't worry. There aren't any complex traps...yet. for the first dungeon, I just want to see how things go.

[Jack Simth]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
Creeping rogue?

The rogue that is used for pretty much a single purpose: spotting and neutralizing traps and locks. It becomes a problem because the player of the rouge doesn't do anything much; just rolls the dice over and over in response to whatever traps the DM throws at the party, in an extremely repetitive fashion. Similar problems can occur with priests (traveling medicine cabinet), if no undead are encountered, although it is less likely as d20 priests also get other nifty spells and spell-like abilities.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Well, the only way I'd allow more than one roll per character to find/disarm/lockpick is if there was a rational for it, like new information or say a day has passed. And if I present information on something, then it's expected that you go over it in-character and at least attempt to figure some of it out before you roll.

Undead will be encountered in some sessions, and as I get better, hopefully other things for clerics to do besides heal and buff.

Does that address your concerns?

[Jack Simth]

On the creeping rouge, I don't so much mean rolling on the same trap over and over, as rolling on different traps, which quickly becomes repetitive; sure, the traps are different, the difficulty of the traps are different, but the handling of them is pretty much exactly the same every time: roll to spot trap, roll to disable trap, continue. In combat, a rouge's options are more limitied than those of a spellcaster (no spells to choose from), and they are less effective than a fighter of equivalent level (can't wear armor, so usually has a poorer AC, can't use as strong of weapons) and are usually relegated to repeatedly firing arrows (or otherwise fighting from a distance) at the current opponent(s). It can become difficult to avoid making the player of the rouge bored very quickly. It becomes a bit less of an issue at higher levels, as the rogue's other abilities start kicking in, granting a better AC from dex bonuses, the better damage from hiding, the ability to snipe from cover, and whatnot.

But pretty much, yeah.

[Fyron]

Jack Simth said:

The rogue that is used for pretty much a single purpose: spotting and neutralizing traps and locks. It becomes a problem because the player of the rouge doesn't do anything much; just rolls the dice over and over in response to whatever traps the DM throws at the party, in an extremely repetitive fashion. Similar problems can occur with priests (traveling medicine cabinet), if no undead are encountered, although it is less likely as d20 priests also get other nifty spells and spell-like abilities.

Hmm... I never seemed to have any problem finding non-healing things to do with clerics in AD&D 2.x, or even just plain old AD&D...

they are less effective than a fighter of equivalent level (can't wear armor, so usually has a poorer AC, can't use as strong of weapons)

D&D 3.x Rogues are faily proficient killing machines, as long as they have good hiding skills and can exploit sneak attacks. Also, give the rogue 2 weapons (and appropriate feats) and he can do a lot of damage with those sneak attacks...

I don't know what you mean by can't wear armor? Heavy armors reduce dexterity bonuses significantly, so rogues can have as high of an AC as a fighter decked in plate mail can, easily. The skill penalties of the heavier "light armors" are fairly negligible. +15 from skill, -2 from armor. Not much to worry about.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hmm...

Note: Make traps more interesting.

Hmm...

* Jack is now hanging by his ankles from a rope swinging from an iron loop in the ceiling 18 feet above Jack's feet. Ten feet to either side are ten-foot ledges, each with a door. Jack is 5'6", by DM fiat. Eight and a half feet below are crocadiles. Each crocadile is twelve feet long and can lunge nine feet into the air. Since each crocadile must pause for five seconds before lunging, Jack can avoid their lunges as long as he keeps watching them. There are three crocadiles and they each lunge 1.6~ seconds apart.

MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ah, feel free to ignore me. Just being goofy.

[Jack Simth]

[/quote]

Imperator Fyron said:
Hmm... I never seemed to have any problem finding non-healing things to do with clerics in AD&D 2.x, or even just plain old AD&D...

You seem to be missing the distinction between "can" and "will" in your response there. A decent cleric player, or a decent DM, can rather successfully keep the issue from ever cropping up.

Imperator Fyron said:

D&D 3.x Rogues are faily proficient killing machines, as long as they have good hiding skills and can exploit sneak attacks. Also, give the rogue 2 weapons (and appropriate feats) and he can do a lot of damage with those sneak attacks...

The fighter gets greater attack bonuses at all levels, and increased attacks earlier; usually has better strength for more damage, better constitution for greater health, and a higher hit roll to begin with. Giving the rouge appropriet feats requires later levels, which I mentioned earlier as allieviating the problem to an extent.

Imperator Fyron said:
I don't know what you mean by can't wear armor? Heavy armors reduce dexterity bonuses significantly, so rogues can have as high of an AC as a fighter decked in plate mail can, easily. The skill penalties of the heavier "light armors" are fairly negligible. +15 from skill, -2 from armor. Not much to worry about.

If you assume that the fighter doesn't have a decent mundane equipment set, that's true. However, a lower-level fighter decked out in full plate with a tower shield (fighters start proficient with all of that, and so take no attack penalties for it) and a dex of 12 gets 10 (base) + 8 (plate) + 4 (shield) + 1 (dex) = 23 AC; A lower-level rouge with 18 Dex (highest initial) gets a +4 dex bonus; with the heaviest armor that allows that +4 (chain shirt), the rouge is running at 10 (base) +4 (armor) +4 (dex) = 18 AC. As the rouge does not (by default, at least) start with proficencies in medium armor, heavy armor, or shields, the rouge can't take any further mundane protection without taking a penalty to their attack. The problem with sneak attacks is that until the rouge gets up high enough that the rouge can re-hide, in the middle of combat, reasonably reliably, it works once per fight. A fighter, out of the box, is proficient with essentially any weapon (s)he can lay hands on; the rouge is limited to ranged, light, or simple weapons (assuming that you don't want to take the penalty for using a weapon that the rouge isn't proficient with). Much of this is alleviated at later levels, where the rouge can have stat gains, multiple feats, class abilities, increased sneak attack damage, and sufficient skill to make sneak attacks more frequent. Of course, by that time, the fighter has even more feats, much improved attack bonuses, more attacks, and his own stat increases. A fighter is a combat specialist; a rogue is a stealth and safe passage specialist with combat ability. Sure, rouges can hold their own in fights. However, fighters specialize in it. With players of equivalent skill and characters of equivalent level, a fighter will usually be meaningfully better at combat than a rouge.

[Jack Simth]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
* Jack is now hanging by his ankles from a rope swinging from an iron loop in the ceiling 18 feet above Jack's feet. Ten feet to either side are ten-foot ledges, each with a door. Jack is 5'6", by DM fiat. Eight and a half feet below are crocadiles. Each crocadile is twelve feet long and can lunge nine feet into the air. Since each crocadile must pause for five seconds before lunging, Jack can avoid their lunges as long as he keeps watching them. There are three crocadiles and they each lunge 1.6~ seconds apart.

MWUHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ah, feel free to ignore me. Just being goofy.

*Casts prestidigitation, and uses the simple tricks to give the crocks other things (small, trivially replaced, cheap conjoured objects moving close to them) to lunge at. Then uses some acrobatics to swing over to the ledges, and uses a casting of Mage Hand to untie the ropes to get onto a ledge at a critical moment.

*Then uses a bardsong to Fascinate narf so Eorg can quietly slip around behind him and hit him on the back of the head with a hammer.

[eorg]

:-P

chaotic good elven wizard named eorg - will multiclass to fighter-wizard