Unit Cost Equation

[BigDaddy]

Scott Hebert said:
Oh, I think I have a decent enough grasp of the math to agree with you that high-HPs and high-Str correlate to the point that one might overshadow the other in this equation.

However, for the purposes of uncovering a unit cost equation, the correlations need to be explicit.

What I mean is, if you tell me 'HP base is 2/3 Str, with a direct proportion after that', that is a lot more helpful as a gauge of making units. If that is what is necessary to make the equation truly useful, then I'd really like to have that.

All you really need to have is the ranges the equation came from, OR just make units that look similar to already existing ones. This equation was never meant to make units significantly more powerful than those that exist. Only to explain the price of the units that DO exist. So, the more your units look like those the more likely they are to be well priced.

To find out how much huge HP amounts are worth, you need to study powerful summoned monsters. . .

[Scott Hebert]

However, if I wanted to make oddball units (and, really, modders generally want to make those, not 'more of the same'), this won't help as much.

[BigDaddy]

Thats why I reccomend doing a similar study of the summonables. With their higher skill levels, natural protection, hp, etc. they would show a clearer picture of what these very desiravle characteristics cost. ALSO, we know the approximate gold value of 3 types of gems (death, fire, and earth). Sushi is skilled enough to make non-linear guesses, as is likely important to describe the costs of some units like the iron dragon and tarasque. He probably does not have the time to do everything at once though.

Besides, most modders make new normal units, and as long as their units aren't significantly BETTER than say Vans, there shouldn't be a problem. Vans are pretty tough, if you want to make a unit significantly more powerful you will need another method. But consider the balance of such a race. The race would probably have crappy priests and expensive mages, with no research mage, or something like that. Typical power nerfs appear to be:

-weak priests
-slow "best" national research mage
-crappy national mages
-extra expensive mages
-crappy sacred units
-"capitol only" good units and other units that suck or are extra expensive
-crappy stealth units (no spy, assasin, or stealth commander)
-lack of random path mages
etc.

Anyone else have a good nerfing rule?

[sushiboat]

OK, here is a new mage formula, with magic paths added. I also made some
procedural changes with modders in mind. Below the main formula are the
composite formulae I created in order to deal with the problem of coefficients
that should not be negative in the context of utility in the game.

Mage Commander (Adjusted R-squared = .95)

Cost = (4.2 * MagicRes) + (.3 * TacMove) + (34.3 * FullRand) +
(34.7 * ElemRand) + (27.1 * SorcRand) + (37.3 * Blood) + (27.5 * Death) +
(28.0 * Earth) + (29.5 * Fire) + (35.1 * Nature) + (32.7 * Astral) +
(34.5 * Water) + (15.2 * Holy) + (25.6 * Unholy) + (11.6 * Air_Prec) +
(2.9 * Att_Def) + (8.5 * Mor_RegLdr) + (6.6 * HP_Str_Prot)

Air_Prec = ((Air - .3) / .8) + ((Prec - 10.6) / 1.9)

Att_Def = ((Att - 9.4) / 2.1) + ((Def - 9.6) / 3.1)

Mor_RegLdr = ((Morale - 11.8) / 1.9) + ((RegLdr - 22.0) / 18.8)

HP_Str_Prot = ((HP - 12.7) / 8.1) + ((Str - 10.5) / 3.2) + ((Prot - 2.9) / 4.9)


Attached is some statistical output for math jocks.

[sushiboat]

The most recent formula above provides an excellent fit to the data. However,
it may be interesting to see where the formula and the real price in the game
are very different. According to the formula, below are the top ten bargains
and ten worst buys for mages. What do you think?

Code:

---

Mage               Real_Price   Formula



Asmeg Jarl             160      249

Troll King             150      225

Centaur Hierophant      80      153

Sidhe Champion         140      210

Theurg                 150      218

Sidhe Lord             280      348

Circle Master          100      164

Master 5 Elem.         190      252

Grand Master           270      330

Garnet Priestess       100      158



Pan                    350      283

Arch Theurg            380      300

Niefel Jarl            500      419

Navigator              180       86

Capricorn              350      255

Lizard King            280      183

Hangadrott             400      282

High Priest of Sun     390      264

Anathemant Dragon      360      230

Alchemist              300      106

---

[Endoperez]

Alchemist, Anathemant Dragon, Hangadrott and Navigator have special abilities that are not counted in: alchemy bonus, fire immunity and heat, glamour, and sailing. And as Pan, Niefel Jarl, Carpicorn and Hangadrott are all physically powerful and undercosted, it seems this new formula doesn't take physical stats into account to the same extent than Illwinter does.
Also, is seems that priestly magic should rise exponentially (or at least in a rising curve, if that makes sense) so that Holy 4 is much better than twice Holy 2.

For the cheap ones, it seems part of the problem is that capital-onlyness does not reduce the price. Circle Master is the most cost-effective mage in the game before your modifications, so that might not be as bad as it looks.

Also, quite a many of them have priestly magic. I think 13 of these 20 units have priestly magic. Asmeg Jarl might have some, but Troll King, Circle Master, Pan, Navigator, Capricorn and Alchemist do not. Others do have atleast some, IIRC. You might want to check out holy magic again.

[johan osterman]

Some of the units that your formula report as overpriced are intentionally overpriced for thematic reasons, such as the Lizard King. I imagine people still buy him occasionally just for the fanaticism. Others, as Endoperez pointed out have special abilitites, Pan has autosummon, Niefel Jarl Cold Aura etc. Among the underpriced some are cheaper because they are rare independents, such as the circle master.

If one were to put any stock into your formula the most conspicous offender is probably the Sidhe champion, since he besides being underpriced has a few extra abilities. On the other hand he is home site only.

[Kristoffer O]

Sacred troops and priests have 1/2 upkeep and are generally given costs 25-50% higher. This might explain some of the worst buys.

Sidhe Lord and Sidhe Champ seems to be way overpriced with your formula. Why is the sidhe lord more expensive than the hangadrott? The hangadrott is better in every way except that he can't wear shoes IIRC.

[Saber Cherry]

I don't think a mage formula is any more relevant to Niefel Jarls as to Ice Devils. They aren't mages so much as supercombattants with free magic paths... that can go underwater...

Jarls and Ice Devils are similar, but nobody thinks of Ice Devils as mages.

[sushiboat]

There are some database errors in the magic paths. Oops! The errors are
sporadic, so I doubt that the formula will change much. I will repost after I
correct the problem.