New Russian OOB (or SPR OOB)

[KraMax]

In all these sources it is spoken about that that in tank to a regiment was 21 tank - 1 tank for the commander of a regiment.

Guards heavy tank regiment of break.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki / % D0%9E%D1%82%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0 %B9 _ % D0%B3%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0 %BA%D0%B8%D0%B9 _ % D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B6%D1%91%D0%BB%D1%8B%D0%B9 _ % D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B9 _ % D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BA
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/01/04.htm
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/No3.htm
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/1998/03/03.htm

Here the small transfer describing structure and a principle of creation of such divisions:

Trial variant of creation of such divisions
"To the operation beginning« Uranium »it has been generated a little OGvTTP, armed with heavy tanks KV-1s. On staff of the end of 1942 the regiment had 4 company on 5 linear tanks and 1 car of the commander of the regiment, all tanks of a regiment were equipped with radio stations. Number of a regiment made 214 persons, from them 105 it was necessary on crews of heavy tanks. The others were in structure of a staff of a regiment, repair company, administrative, supplying and medical services. For supply, and communications the regiment could have investigations some not armour vehicles - lorries, jeeps and motorcycles. Fighting application has shown sharply increased abilities OGvTTP in comparison with tank cases of the beginning of 1942 on break of defence of the opponent."

And still:

"Besides, perfection of German anti-tank artillery has led to that the reservation of the Soviet tanks has already ceased to be sufficient. Arriving in 1942 in the increasing quantities regarding Wermakht 75-mm anti-tank gun Pak 40 had no problems in defeat T-60 and T-34 from any distance and represented more than essential threat for KV-1, whose booking could protect the car only on certain distances and course corners. Therefore the management of Red Army had been made very important two conclusions - for break well and beforehand become stronger opponent it is necessary to apply the divisions equipped same (in order to avoid problems with supply) and well armour heavy tanks. For successful overcoming of defence of the enemy the massed application of tanks, but with their as much as possible flexible management and their close interaction with infantry and artillery is necessary. The decision was accepted, that to most full answering these conditions base unit is the heavy tank regiment number in 21 car. As these divisions should crack originally defence of the enemy with all following consequences in the form of losses, etc. For increase of fighting spirit of staff have decided to appropriate at once to separate tank regiments at formation an honorary title Guards with all following from it privileges. "

Here it is not clear in what precisely to year these states in 1942 or 1944 have been created. Probably about 1944 it is spoken as about a year of creation of "Guards" tank regiments with tanks IS...

p.s. sorry for my Bad English and my bad machine translator.

[DRG]

OK. Please tell me what does this prove about post war formations ? I can see in 1944 this formation was created to utilize the new IS tanks better----- so granted----- There does appear to be a case for 5 tank companies but only in early 1944 and so far, only during the war.

Don

[KraMax]

The matter is that during war and after war there were regiments of heavy tanks and a brigade of heavy tanks. All of them Guards. Probably in brigades of heavy tanks there was other organizational-regular structure. I yet have not found these data. I will search further

[KraMax]

It is possible to make as follows: to leave an old variant of 7 tanks in company and new 5 tanks in company... I Think that both these have the right of a variant to existence.

[DRG]

OK but that does sound like a guess for those formations but I understand, sometimes we have to guess too.

On an unrelated matter can you site the source you used to give the 107mm B-11 RCL in your OOB a range of 30 ? We don't use maximum ranges for those weapons. If we did the US M40 would get considerably more than it has now. I know that sometimes finding info on weapons is difficult because not every source uses the same terminology ( or the standard they use varies from source to source ) but we aim to use "Practical" or "effective" range for things like the B-11 and I haven't found anything that indicates the B-11 had a 1500m "Practical" or "effective" range but if you do I'm interested in reading about it.

The info I have on the B-11 is..

Range (m):
Max Effective: 450
Max Aimed Range: 1,400 (est)

a second source gives this information

BK-883 - HEAT. Projectile 7.51 kg. Complete round 12.5 kg. Warhead 1.06 kg
of RDX/Aluminium. GK-2 PIBD fuze. Range: 450 m (effective) 1,400 m (max).
Penetration 381 mm. Muzzle velocity


or 9 for max effective and 28 for max aimed range and a penetration of 38 when translated to game terms

in contrast the US M40 shows

Range (m):
Maximum Effective: 1,350
Maximum Range: 2,745


or 27 and 55 hex range.

This explains the 27 range in the game for the US M40 though I have seen other figures that give it "around 1100m m using HEAT and HEP-T" so that would be 22 but 22 and 27 are at least close. The difference between the 9 range we give the B-11 ( 450m ) and the 30 you give ( 1500 m ) isn't so close so I'm curious where that came from ? Perhaps someone used the Max range in error?

Don

[KraMax]

Hello Don.

I have found here this source:

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/crewwpns.htm

And with surprise has found out that data published here - erroneous or inexact.

The explanation idle time - at me is the passport (or the instruction) to gun RCL B-10 and to gun RCL B-11. In them I subtracted that the shell flies with speed of 400 metres per second / and as all of us know at HEAT shells penetration does not change with distance increase. Then it turns out that on the source of the information specified by me - a shell let out of gun B-10 or B-11 - will fall to the earth in 1 second?

Here the links to the table of shooting for gun B-10:

www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212324.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212326.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212327.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212328.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212329.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212330.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212331.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212332.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212333.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212334.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212335.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212336.jpg
www.pecypc.kz/kramax/b-10/212337.jpg

As we see aim range of shooting of 1430 metres. This distance a shell flies by for 5.3 seconds. Range of a direct shot - 390 metres. What is the direct shot is when the cross in a gun sight should be induced precisely at the tank (or the car) and for this purpose it is not necessary to enter amendments into a sight. But then it turns out if we take range of a direct shot then in game it is necessary to reduce this range at all tanks for a basis.

Aim range of shooting HEAT a shell - is specified in the table in a file 212333.jpg
Aim range of shooting HE a shell - is specified in the table in a file 212335.jpg

The item with. If I am interesting I can translate into English names of columns of tables.

Sorry for my bad English.

Best regards

[DRG]

Let's keep it short and simple. It makes it easier to translate

Ths source you quoted at the start agrees with all other data I have for that weapon. The effective range for the B-11 is 450 metres and the penetration is 380mm and effective range is the range we've used, or tried to use whenever possible, for all RCL's in the game.

Are you saying all the info on the B-11 available in English is wrong ?

Don

[KraMax]

I have shown you the table of shooting for a gun which stood out in army in hands crew this gun. What can be even more demonstrative than the instruction?
I speak about that that as you have told earlier, that probably there is some misunderstanding of the given information or difficulty of translate. I speak that it is impossible for instructions of range of shooting of guns B-10, B-11 and SPG-9 to use - data of range of a direct shot. These guns have a sight - with which help they can shoot on the distances specified by me.

[KraMax]

There was time when all English-speaking editions a rocket 9A4172 Vikhr - named a rocket 9M120. It was an error. And now many editions about it have written. But this modern weapon and it is interesting to people. And here RCL guns of manufacture of the USSR of 1954 - very few people now interest. I have only resulted the real table of shooting on which tipper-of of a gun could destroy the tank.

[DRG]

Showing me scans of a manual I can just barely read isn't very helpful, is it ?

The wrong name of ATGM and the range and penetration of a recoilless rifle have little in common. As you noted, the RCL has been around for years. It's difficult to believe that the known effective range for that weapon could be that far out given that to GET an " effective range " would require field testing and since the B11 has been around for 50+ years some testing must have been done to get that "effective " range

Yes?

Now, Andy and I have discussed this weapon in the past and questioned it's low range but every piece of info we can dig up ( and read ! ) gives the same results. The maximum AIMED range we have matches your info almost exactly. Where we diverge is in the effective range and as I said, that's the range we have been using for those weapons not the maximum range you can actually point and fire it.

Those scans, if I understood correctly what I could read, shows that weapon had a max range or 1430 m for the HEAT round. "which tipper-of a gun ( gun aimer ) could destroy the tank."

OK, lets assume for a minute that 1430m is correct and all the other info about "effective" range of 450m is wrong... even if we do accept that is the maximum range for that weapon that number translates to 28 hexes in game terms not 30.

Consider also..... maybe nobody could actually hit anything with it reliably beyond 450 metres despite what the manual says you should be able to do. EVERY army is guilty of that .

Also, you have 30 for a penetration for HEAT.... all the numbers we have shows 38. Where did 30 penetration come from ?

Don