Post your Dom3 Haiku

[JimMorrison]

Temporarily removed for review ~Edi


Locus of the stars
Shine their light down upon me
Chosen son of light


It's your birthday
100 fine Astral Pearls
Blow out the candles

[Ironhawk]

pride embodied
high king of the SCs
welcome to hell

[Edi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

[snip]


Locus of the stars
Shine their light down upon me
Chosen son of light


It's your birthday
100 fine Astral Pearls
Blow out the candles

That first one gives a REALLY, REALLY bad vibe, Jim. I know Dominions 3 has a blood sacrifice component to it, but holy crap, no, this is not good. I know you didn't mean it that way, but that's the way ot looks like. Even in context, that would probably be enough to get you outright banned in a few forums I frequent and they generally don't ban users lightly. Sorry, but it's going to disappear from view for a moment until it has been reviewed by someone with more authority than I have.

[JimMorrison]

It just..... O.O

I just wanted something about blood magic, and it came out with such shocking clarity..... I apologize for using my poetic powers for evil.....

[HoneyBadger]

In Jim's defense, I read the poem and yes, it was very, very dark, but he was also just working with what was already in the game. When you're dealing with the subject matter that happens to be 13 year old blind virgin girls destined to be sacrificed to dark gods, how many directions do you have to go?

It's not like he posted a pedophiliac snuff film. It's just a poem, and it concerned things that are already a reality that we deal with every day: namely Blood Slaves.

And when there's something with that potential to be profoundly disturbing in a shared environment, such as a community forum, it's bound to force it's way out into the open, eventually. Trying to pretend that Blood Slaves represent anything other than what they clearly and descriptively *do* represent is just sticking our heads in the sand, and sweeping a problematic issue under the rug, just because we're not capable of dealing with it.

This is explicitely a thread for art, and while art may be difficult to interpret, especially when it's dark and shocking and negative, it's still the perogative of the one who's experiencing the art to interpret it.

Yes, people should expect to have a choice about what they're exposed to-this being a games forum-because the community and the companies involved have a certain amount of responsibility to advise others about the content they can expect, but doesn't mean that that's they way the real world works.

I don't think Jim meant any harm, either. I also don't think he *did* any harm. Yes, the words he used were very evocative-that's to his credit as a writer-and yes, what he evoked was dark and terrible and hard to imagine-or perhaps the problem is that it was too easily imagined? But you'll notice that he didn't use any of the censored words the forum blots out, and-no matter how good a writer he may be-he didn't force us to think evil thoughts-he just opened the door to them.

Censorship doesn't solve any problems, it just hides problems in dark corners, where they can grow bigger and worse, unnoticed.

[Edi]

If you have a problem with moderation decisions, you are supposed to take them to an administrator over PM. However, since this is here already, I will respond to it so that the reasoning behind the decision is there for everyone to see.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

In Jim's defense, I read the poem and yes, it was very, very dark, but he was also just working with what was already in the game. When you're dealing with the subject matter that happens to be 13 year old blind virgin girls destined to be sacrificed to dark gods, how many directions do you have to go?

It's not like he posted a pedophiliac snuff film. It's just a poem, and it concerned things that are already a reality that we deal with every day: namely Blood Slaves.

There's one general direction but a few different paths. Yes, there is blood sacrifice and blood slaves in the game and I have never forgotten just what it would mean in absolute terms. But there are differences between ways of dealing with that in creative work. The Dominions 3 thematic texts have never made any pretense of sugarcoating it or downplaying what it means, but neither have they sung the praises of blood sacrifice.

The main problem with Jim's poem stems from the last line in combination with the first two. The first two are just fine and if the third one had been something else, such as "The Demon Gate opens", there'd have been no problem whatsoever with it. But with the line that was there, the whole context of the poem changed to something far worse.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And when there's something with that potential to be profoundly disturbing in a shared environment, such as a community forum, it's bound to force it's way out into the open, eventually. Trying to pretend that Blood Slaves represent anything other than what they clearly and descriptively *do* represent is just sticking our heads in the sand, and sweeping a problematic issue under the rug, just because we're not capable of dealing with it.

I have never pretended that blood sacrifice in Dominions is anything other than what it is and if you think I have, you can post quotes right now or shut up.

There is no way that piece is going to come back in its original form because to everyone who does not play Dominions it gives exactly the impression which led to its removal. Hell, for many of those who do play Dominions it gives the same impression nontheless, though we can recognize that it was not intended. Leaving it up on the forum gives or might give the wider outside world the impression that Shrapnel Games condones or approves that sort of thing. If anyone should link it and post it somewhere else, that's a PR disaster waiting to happen. Because of that, it has been preemptively dealt with.

Most of us are quite capable of dealing with a lot of dark and negative things, both in real life and in art, but that is quite irrelevant to the point I made above. Besides that, this forum has (or at least has had) users as young as 13 and therefore some judgment must be exercised even when posting art.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

This is explicitely a thread for art, and while art may be difficult to interpret, especially when it's dark and shocking and negative, it's still the perogative of the one who's experiencing the art to interpret it.

This happens to be a private forum where it is the prerogative of the owner, Shrapnel Games, to determine what is and is not appropriate to post on their forums. I made the determination that Jim's poem should be reviewed and that pending review it would not be visible. I brought it up with the other mods and admins and so far I have heard no disagreement.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Yes, people should expect to have a choice about what they're exposed to-this being a games forum-because the community and the companies involved have a certain amount of responsibility to advise others about the content they can expect, but doesn't mean that that's they way the real world works.

What's your point here? It's precisely the way the real world works that when companies take their responsibilities as well as their posted policies seriously, the potential problems of this nature are tackled promptly instead of waiting and hoping nothing negative happens. In the real world we may not always have a choice of not seeing things such as traffic accidents that leave human body parts strewn all over the road, but how is that relevant to the operation of this forum?

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't think Jim meant any harm, either. I also don't think he *did* any harm. Yes, the words he used were very evocative-that's to his credit as a writer-and yes, what he evoked was dark and terrible and hard to imagine-or perhaps the problem is that it was too easily imagined? But you'll notice that he didn't use any of the censored words the forum blots out, and-no matter how good a writer he may be-he didn't force us to think evil thoughts-he just opened the door to them.

As I said, I do not think he did it on purpose and I don't think he meant any harm. It's quite easy when writing poetry to sometimes consider things line by line and then miss something that comes from a combination of lines that by themselves have nothing wrong in them. I think this is exactly what happened. Compare to what it would have been, had the last line been according to my example above. As far as opening doorways to evil, I've seen enough evil and read enough about evil seen by others that it's not like I'm acting like a corrupted innocent here. In this case, I consider it best that the piece in its original form not appear here because of the associations and doubts it may evoke.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Censorship doesn't solve any problems, it just hides problems in dark corners, where they can grow bigger and worse, unnoticed.

What is being addressed with removing Jim's poem and what you think is being addressed with it seem from my perspective to be two entirely different things. If you have any complaints after reading this post, take them via PM to an administrator. Mindi and Annette are fairly active on the forum and they should answer your concerns promptly.

[Annette]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

I don't think Jim meant any harm, either. I also don't think he *did* any harm. Yes, the words he used were very evocative-that's to his credit as a writer-and yes, what he evoked was dark and terrible and hard to imagine-or perhaps the problem is that it was too easily imagined? But you'll notice that he didn't use any of the censored words the forum blots out, and-no matter how good a writer he may be-he didn't force us to think evil thoughts-he just opened the door to them.

Censorship doesn't solve any problems, it just hides problems in dark corners, where they can grow bigger and worse, unnoticed.

Edi took the appropriate action by moving the content in question to our private forum for administrative review. Our forum administrators, myself included, have chosen to leave the content permanently removed from public view. When taken out of context, the sentiment expressed is obscene and suggestive of illegal activity. I'm pretty sure Jim understands and accepts our moderation. Please refer to our Forum Rules "1) Moral Conduct" and "14)Do Not Argue With The Above Forum Rules" if you have any questions about our moderation policies and how proceed if you disagree.

This particular subject is closed for public discussion.

[JimMorrison]

To be honest, I think it says a lot about human insecurities, I've written volumes about the evils of Political Correctness.

Be that as it may, I do understand what it means to be a guest. Likely, some of you think of it like the vomit that was found in the public restroom, "ARGH, thanks for grabbing the mop so fast, Edi!", but allowing that sort of reaction isn't entirely fair to yourselves.

Was there an unintentional double entendre in that last line? Absolutely not. The double entendre was absolutely intentional. The beauty in poetry, most of all such highly defined forms as haiku, is to fit as much meaning into as little space as possible. Did that poem let you too deeply into the mind of the blood mage? Perhaps for some people's comfort level, it did. I didn't write it to be comfortable, I wrote it to be evocative.

But you are correct, I do know what it means to be a good guest, and I'm not arguing the point - you did what you felt was right, and life goes on. It's not an R rated forum, and I should have (and will in the future) considered that many would see that poem as containing "mature themes".


(Edit- this deserved a more PG-13 blood haiku!)

Clever little mage
Bathe in hot virgin blood
Making Angels cry


<3

[HoneyBadger]

I'm an American. I know we have a lot of people here from other countries, and I'm certain that you have your own noble heritages that stem from a patriotic view of those countries, and the symbology that each country stands for, and represents.

As an American, I have the right to freedom of speech, but I also have the responsibility to defend it. Freedom of speech has been under attack by not only special interests, but a more general public, for probably half my lifetime. Even our current President has attacked it, publically, on more than one occasion. He's already rewritten the Constitution, so it's no idle threat.

Right now I have a wife I love, a home I love living in, a job that satisfies me, friends, family, health, and stuff. In other words, a life I don't mind living. A life I enjoy, that holds hope and promise for a better future. I've never served in the Military-I'm not physically fit nor philosophically inclined to do so. My family has a proud military tradition, though, and we've given a member to every single just American war, since the Revolution-and if we should ever have another just American war, I'd be proud to serve in it. I'm proud of our soldiers who do serve, and I tell them whenever I meet one-which is fairly often in my line of work. If this country were ever attacked, I would defend it to the utmost, and I would absolutely defend my personal interests-my wife, my home, my family, etc, to the utmost-but that's as far as it goes. I like my peaceful life, and I don't enjoy conflict or confrontation outside of Dominions 3 or a sparring ring for boxing, martial arts, fencing, what have you.

I *would* defend freedom of speech with my life. I would give my life, and give up everything that I love, cherish, or own, in order to preserve that. To me, freedom of speech is *being* an American. That's what it means, that's our tradition, that's what I stand for, with every cell in my body and thought in my head, with 300 years of my family's history to add it weight.

I understand that Shrapnel Games isn't particularly concerned with the freedom of speech question, that it's a business with image concerns-in that, it's just like any other business-and that I and anyone else is perfectly free to go say whatever we want someplace else if we don't like it. I get that, and I have no plans of leaving, so I *will* follow the rules to the best of my ability.

But don't look for, and don't expect, that I'll quit defending freedom of speech. It might not apply on these forums in a physical way, but I'd say the same things to a citizen of any other country where freedom of speech doesn't apply. I'll follow the rules and laws while I'm on these forums, just like I would if I were a guest in another country, but that doesn't alter who I am, and it doesn't change freedom of speech from being a beautiful ideal that I'm proud to fall under, nor my willingness to uphold it with every fibre of my being.

I am not condemning you, Edi, or for your actions. I understand them, and the necessity behind them. I want you to know that. If I were in your place, as a representative of a company, I might do the same thing.
I'm defending Jim, and the things I personally believe in and hold sacred- not attacking you, or Shrapnel Games.

[Tifone]

I understand we're all guests here, so the host makes the rules, that's ok, but I think, damn, we're all adults and vaccinated, we all know some things exist, I don't think if Jim has some artistic words about some controversial aspect of the game he will create a psycopathic monster out of a normal reader of the forum, or he is defending some crime. Damn, Kubrik was to be shot dead for what he expressed through his work or not? ^_^
OK, jokes aside, I know u guys have the upper hand here, I just wanted to "break a spear" in favour of one of our artists here.

BTW, have u seen the http://www.everypoet.com/haiku/default.htm website? it automatically creates some haikus which really seem coming from dom3 sometimes ^_^ an example

catapults frown, first
mottled sharp earth awaits, ghoul
runs brightly, faceless

sorcerers extrude
agonies reconsider
silently, snidely

PeAcE ^_^