OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[thejeff]

With all due respect to CS Lewis, the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument falls apart if you do not accept the Bible as, at least, a fairly accurate description of Jesus's ministry.
If you do accept the Bible's claims then there is little point in making the argument. If not, then the argument falls apart: perhaps he never claimed divinity.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by thejeff

With all due respect to CS Lewis, the "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" argument falls apart if you do not accept the Bible as, at least, a fairly accurate description of Jesus's ministry.
If you do accept the Bible's claims then there is little point in making the argument. If not, then the argument falls apart: perhaps he never claimed divinity.

That's true as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

If you reject the Bible, why would you believe that Jesus was a prophet of God? For that matter, why would you believe that Jesus was anyone special at all?

Perhaps one would choose to accept parts of the Bible, but not others. For obvious reasons, I think that approach is fatally flawed. Still, let's accept it for now. If you want to accept parts of the Bible, but not other parts, then how do you choose which parts? The divinity of Jesus is a central theme of Scripture, from Genesis right through Revelation. Christ's place as the second Person of the Trinity is not merely a side-issue; it's the core issue.

As I wrote, I understand other doctrinal disputes. I started my Christian walk in a Lutheran church. Lutherans are a sacramental denomination who practice infant baptism. Now I'm a Southern Baptist, and we don't baptize babies. I can see arguments in Scripture for both positions, and I truly wish that Christians would not divide ourselves over it. (For the most part, we don't, but there are always exceptions.) We can disagree over these points of doctrine, and the core truths of Christianity are not threatened.

If Jesus was merely a prophet, there's no point in Christianity. A prophet can't save you from your sins. He can't heal your broken spirit. He can't walk with you throughout your life. And he can't bring you into Heaven when you die. Only God can do that.

[thejeff]

Agreed in general. I'm not a Christian, as you may have gathered. I do not accept the Bible as any form of revealed truth or however you wish to phrase it.

I don't believe Jesus was a prophet of God. I don't really believe much of anything about Jesus. And as I understand the Liar, Lunatic or Lord argument, it's not aimed at Christians (or those claiming to be Christian if you wish) who don't believe Jesus was divine. It's aimed at unbelievers. It's a good argument if you accept the premises, but those who accept the premise are likely to already believe the conclusion.

Jesus's divinity is a core issue of your interpretation of Scripture, not of every ones. Most Jews, at least, would deny that the divinity of Jesus is a central theme of the Old Testament. That belief wasn't settled, although widespread, even among Christians until several hundred years after his death. Nor was any such theme evident beforehand - Jewish Messiah expectations, which certainly existed, were much more secular and nationalistic than the later Christian interpretations of the same passages.

[HoneyBadger]

This is the kind of thing that always bothers me about religious debates-everybody's always trying to convince everybody else that they're wrong. Here's a thought: You're right. They're *also* right. Nobody's wrong. You're both right *at the same time*

That's why it's called a "belief system" instead of a "fact system".

Just shut the **** up and deal with it.

If you must insist your ways are *more* right than everyone else's, if yours is truly the One True Path, then simply trust that by the time this Universe ends, everything will have worked itself out to your satisfaction. It's called *FAITH* for a reason! And the reason religions have caused so many problems over the years isn't because of flaws within the religions themselves-it's because of peoples' insecurities and doubts about their beliefs.

I'm not a Christian, but I was raised Christian, and I've taken certain values from that upbringing. I admire some of the things Jesus said and did and represents (whether or not those things are factual doesn't really matter. They are good messages, and that's the important thing). I also admire many Christians. They can be good, kind, generous, intelligent folk--worldly and earthy.

I still look upon Christianity fondly. I have read the Bible, some parts more than once, and continue to study the lives of various saints, as well as Christian history, mysticism/occultism, and apocrypha.

At one time, I considered becoming a Christian preacher of whatever denomination. I think there's a lot of beauty and truth to the religion, and that it often speaks with a powerful message of love. Being Christian, to me, means finding compassion for those who are different than you are, and helping them, if they need it, to improve their lives, and to be better people--But only if they actually *need* that help.

The whole Christian Missionary thing really ticks me off, though. If you really want to convince people that your beliefs and your way of living is better than theirs, then be their friend. Help them improve their lives. Show them compassion and strength of character.

Don't destroy their culture and way of life that they've spent hundreds and thousands of years to develope, just because you can. That's not being a Christian, that's being an arrogant, unfeeling, uncaring bastard, and spreading the very Word of God like it was an infectious disease. I don't care if their kids are starving and they can't grow food and don't wear a lot of clothing. Don't rely on God to feed them someday in Heaven, after they've already starved to death, God's name on their dying lips. Just feed the kids, teach the parents how to farm, deal with the fact that cultural differences aren't the same as moral deficiencies, and shut up about it.

If you want to introduce them to Christianity, wait until they come to you, personally, and ask you about it. If you do enough to show them you care, and represent yourself and your religion well, chances are they'll want to know more about you and what you stand for. If they don't, then consider it a test of your faith. Do more, give more, and shut up about it.

And don't make the Bible the first book they ever read in English. That's just pathetic propagandaism--and it colors their view of our *entire* culture, not just your precious religion. I'm an American, and I don't want to be identified with certain aspects of the Bible, or Christian fundamentalism. I'm not comfortable with that, or with the integration of religion and government which often acts as a motivation for missionary work (if you deny this, go ask an Aztec). So please respect the wishes of a fellow tax-payer. I may not attend your churches, but I helped build them.

And please, please, respect other cultures. If nothing else, they keep our restaurants interesting.

If you want a good book to introduce people to the English language, teach them to read the Complete Works of Shakespeare. From Inuit to Bushmen to Japanese to Peruvians to New Yorkers, I guarantee that everyone can identify with Shakespeare *atleast* as much as they can identify with the Bible. Feel free to make the Bible the *second* book they read, if you so choose. I have no issues with that, as long as you get through all of Shakespeare *first*--and Shakespeare will make a fine introduction to the Bible for them, thus allowing them to better appreciate your wonderful religious scripture.

And I have a real problem with Christians going around saying "God is in control. God is in complete charge of my life". Step in front of a speeding bus sometime, and then you can tell me all about how God has got a really dark sense of irony. God is in charge of angels. Your god gave you free will. That makes you *better* than angels, and closer to God. To believe that God is in control of you is to be in agreement with Satan, not God. It's your belief system, not mine.

As a human, you've been entrusted with the ability to make decisions for yourself, and to affect and attempt to control your life. If you have a problem with living your life responsibly and assertively, then take it up with your faith. Maybe you can convince God to make you an angel, and then you can go around burning cities and murdering babies without a second thought.

And going around and actually *telling* people that God is in complete charge of your life and everything that happens to you, is both moronic and sad. I'm sorry, but that's *my* belief, and I don't mean it personally. I've heard that message over and over from many Christians, and it never fails to irritate.

People who say that God is in complete control of their lives never seem to realize that it makes God sound like an insecure prick, since he's making you go around telling everyone what a badass bigshot god he is. People that go around telling other people how big and strong and great and in control they are (even by proxy), I just don't associate myself with, because they're intensely annoying, and often belligerant, erratic, and dangerous. Your self-conscious control freak god does not impress or awe me, as he speaks-like some divine ventriloquist-through your fleshdummy lips. You represent your god and your faith in such a way that I wouldn't want to be anywhere nearer your horrifying Cthulhu-god, for fear *It* would suck out my soul, scramble my brains, and work me like a zombie puppet on it's invisible tentacles, like you're telling me that *It* did to you.

I am, to some degree, in charge of my life-imperfect though I am. I accept that some things are out of my control, and that their are greater powers in this world than myself. But I take responsibility for my own actions, and I affect my surroundings and circumstances with determination, and without reliance on anyone but family and friends-and only total reliance on myself, and my ability to survive and prosper.

That said, I understand that it may be difficult to act as a true representative of such a potent entity, that it may be impossible for you to discribe the true beauty of your faith in terms which don't make my guts turn to jelly, and I've led a hard enough life, so if the higher power you've put in charge of your life can make my life better and easier, I'm willing to accept all the help I can get, but I'm going to need proof--in the form of cash. After all, Christianity already had 1 shot at my soul, and it blew it.

So if you're willing to take a *real* leap of faith in God and Humanity, and send me $50,000 in U.S. currency to prove to me God's generosity to His faithful(what's money, compared to the strength of your religion? Small bills, please-and no consecutive serial numbers.), then I'm prepaired to consider your arguments, and to accept your money, and to spend it, verily.

Understand that I must take payment because, while I refuse to be a slave to your god, I *am* willing to consider an exciting employment opportunity.

Once I have the cash safely deposited in the bank, and have retreated to a secure, undisclosed location, I'm willing to give you 1 hour of my time (in IMs) to convince me that I can be led back into the fold. I promise it'll be me on the other side of the IMs, that I'll be as open to it as I can be, and that I'll give you the full 60 minutes, but I make no promises of reconversion. Convincing me is up to you and God. God being infinite and omnipotent, I consider an hour to be a generous amount of time, and the $50,000 a mere-but very necessary-formality.

I'll be splitting the money with JimMorrison, by the way, so maybe you'll make 2 converts for the price of 1?

Obviously, not all Christians are missionaries, not all missionaries are poisonous, and the Christian message isn't always "You Will Be Assimilated".

The thing that bothers me about Atheists, is when you do your best to attack, dismantle, and destroy anyone who *has* found religion. Stop acting like you're on some sort of Atheist Jihad. If someone has a relationship with God (in whatever form), and that relationship has improved their lives and made them better people, that's a good thing for them, and it's probably a good thing for you. Now if someone gets in your face about religion, and you react to that, I completely understand. But just because you don't believe in a spiritual and eternal element to your life, doesn't give you the right to seek out and assault the faith (and personality, and culture, and background) of someone who does, just because they do.

And just because you do it intellectually, with the weapons of science and reason, doesn't erase your blame for furthering hatred and fear and misery. Stop acting like you're no longer a citizen of this planet, or that you're better and smarter than everyone else who does believe in something.

And stop making Atheism *your* religion. You're missing the whole point of being an Atheist.
"I'm not going anywhere when I die. Nobody does. There's no God and nothing more to life than this one. You're all just deluding yourselves-hahaha!" Sound familiar? Well **** you. You don't know what happens when we die, any more than anybody else does.

Again, this only applies to some Atheists-and you know who you are.

Rejecting spirituality is in itself a belief and a choice, whether you like it or not. Many people who have religion weren't given that choice, and with that choice comes the responsibility to act with compassion and understanding (if also with skepticism), and to create a moral code that you, yourself, live by.

I could find some fault with the nature and/or practices of any other belief-system on the planet,
I promise you, but there's a 25000 character limit that I'm fast approaching, and my rant is not yet complete. None of them embody or achieve perfection more than any of the others, though, not even yours (Yes you! I've studied and sought out more of them than the average bunny, and if I'd hit upon a perfect system, I'd be here spouting off cheerfully about how we can all someday find ourselves in the midst of a big sloppy orgy in my version of Eternal Paradise.).

The point to all this is that *all* of our belief systems, or just our experiences of life, have given us all values that can compliment one another. There's no reason for us to argue about who's god or gods or lack therof, has the bigger dick.

We're all adults here, and it's behaviour that we should have left behind with the 3rd grade--and good riddance! We're just putting a new spin on "My dad can beat up your dad", using bigger words and concepts, and pretending that it somehow makes it all so luminous and deep. It's a bull**** argument that we continue to beat like the well and truly dead horse that it is, because it's easier to sit here and argue about than it is to identify real problems that face all of us, work together openly and respectfully to find a solution, and to then take that solution and act on it. It's fear and distrust, and lack of real hope and faith in ourselves and our abilities, and we let those things separate us.

Whether you're Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Atheist, Wiccan, Gnostic, Agnostic, Hindu, Buddhist, Jainist, Hari-Krishna, Norse, Animist, Satanist, Rastafarian, Pastafarian, whatever the hell I am-because I really don't know-or none of the above-we *ALL* have something to bring to the table, and we all can sit and eat together and be satisfied.

I recognise most of you on this thread, atleast as well as one can recognise another human being, when glimpsed through a computer screen. I consider many of you friends, and I'm writing this out of friendship to all of you, in the hope that maybe, in this one tiny little corner of the world, we can actually come together as different people-recognising and accepting that it's those differences that can make us stronger!-and talk together and work together to make our lives and the lives of those close to us-and maybe even the world itself, just a tiny bit better, by setting aside as irrelevant to the conversation, those fears and hatreds that were handed down to us from long-dead history, and that we hold so dear to our hearts. If we just try to understand each other simply as peers.

We have enough reasons to argue and fight and hate and resent one another, as human beings.
We don't need our spiritual sides and nobler natures-and arguably those things which are the *best* parts of us-to give us yet another reason for antagonism.

It's a very lonely world out there, no matter who you are or what you believe in. It's lonely, but it's also full of endless variety and freshness, richness and wonder, and we can do better for ourselves and each other than trying to make everybody into the same person. We're all humans, we're all the same species, and that applies to gender and nationalism and sexual orientation, and even religion.

We're all on this world together, at the same time, and we'd be smarter and stronger and better, if we just helped one another out, without also asking that they become more like us.

[JimMorrison]

Oh boy, now look, you've made the Badger 'splode.


Oh and FYI - my god's dick es mue gigante!

[SlipperyJim]

Whoops, we seem to have cast Growing Fury on the Badger....

I can't possibly respond to everything in this entire post. Actually, I've suddenly become very busy, so this may be my last post for a while.

I'll try to pick out a few main points to address. Starting with the first point:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

This is the kind of thing that always bothers me about religious debates-everybody's always trying to convince everybody else that they're wrong. Here's a thought: You're right. They're *also* right. Nobody's wrong. You're both right *at the same time*

That's why it's called a "belief system" instead of a "fact system".

Just shut the **** up and deal with it.

Postmodernism is unsustainable, as I mentioned to KO. Everyone can't be right, because many of our beliefs are mutually exclusive.

For example, I believe in the God of the Bible: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Atheists believe there is no god at all. We can't both be correct. One does not equal Zero.

There's either something (or Someone) greater than us, or there isn't. If there is something (or Someone) greater than us, then that something (or Someone) must have some sort of identity. There must be facts we can learn and truths we can explore.

But we won't get anywhere if we continue to indulge the postmodern fallacy that everyone is right. Everyone cannot be right. It is entirely possible that everyone is wrong, but that's a different question.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

If you must insist your ways are *more* right than everyone else's, if yours is truly the One True Path, then simply trust that by the time this Universe ends, everything will have worked itself out to your satisfaction. It's called *FAITH* for a reason! And the reason religions have caused so many problems over the years isn't because of flaws within the religions themselves-it's because of peoples' insecurities and doubts about their beliefs.

Read the Book of Revelation some time. The world will end, and God will work everything according to His plan (not mine).

The problem is not my doubts in God's plan. On the contrary, God has made His plan perfectly clear (at least in some respects), and that plan requires me to take action. If I don't want my family, friends, and loved ones to spend eternity apart from God, I have an obligation to be a witness to them. More about that later....

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

The whole Christian Missionary thing really ticks me off, though. If you really want to convince people that your beliefs and your way of living is better than theirs, then be their friend. Help them improve their lives. Show them compassion and strength of character.

Don't destroy their culture and way of life that they've spent hundreds and thousands of years to develope, just because you can. That's not being a Christian, that's being an arrogant, unfeeling, uncaring bastard, and spreading the very Word of God like it was an infectious disease. I don't care if their kids are starving and they can't grow food and don't wear a lot of clothing. Don't rely on God to feed them someday in Heaven, after they've already starved to death, God's name on their dying lips. Just feed the kids, teach the parents how to farm, deal with the fact that cultural differences aren't the same as moral deficiencies, and shut up about it.

Missionaries don't usually do what you're claiming they do. Missionaries do help the poor, feed the hungry, and tend to the sick. They do all of the good things that you're saying they should do, so I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

The North American Mission Board is the missionary arm of my denomination. Go explore the website and see the sorts of things that Southern Baptists do. For example, we're very involved in helping people who were affected by Hurricane Ike. In addition to the NAMB, my church also sponsors missionaries that build houses for poor people in Central America, install clean water filters in Africa, and provide free medical care to poor tribal folks in various undeveloped countries.

If you don't like Southern Baptists, check out Habitat for Humanity, which is an ecumenical Christian mission to build houses for poor people.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

If you want to introduce them to Christianity, wait until they come to you, personally, and ask you about it. If you do enough to show them you care, and represent yourself and your religion well, chances are they'll want to know more about you and what you stand for. If they don't, then consider it a test of your faith. Do more, give more, and shut up about it.

That's a great philosophy if the Christian worldview is utterly false. On the other hand, if Jesus was right, then we have an obligation to help people spiritually in addition to helping them in material ways.

(I promised I'd get back to our obligation to witness.)

To put it another way: If all you do is feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and tend to the sick without ever telling them about Jesus, then all you've accomplished is to send well-fed, well-dressed, healthy people to Hell.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

And I have a real problem with Christians going around saying "God is in control. God is in complete charge of my life". Step in front of a speeding bus sometime, and then you can tell me all about how God has got a really dark sense of irony. God is in charge of angels. Your god gave you free will. That makes you *better* than angels, and closer to God. To believe that God is in control of you is to be in agreement with Satan, not God. It's your belief system, not mine.

We do have free will. As Christians, we must surrender our will to God. That's what Jesus did in the Garden of Gethsemane, and that's what He wants us to do.

However, our free will is limited. Essentially, we have to pick to whom we shall be enslaved. That's the point that Paul made in Romans 6. We are all born slaves to sin. By the grace of God, we can choose to surrender our wills to Him. When we do so, we are set free from sin and we become slaves to righteousness.

Before someone flips out, the neat "trick" to becoming a slave to righteousness is that it's our only way to become free. (That's almost Zen, really.) Surrendering to God opens all sorts of new possibilities in one's life. God has shown me things that I could have never imagined before I knew Him. A life of faith is a life of adventure.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

That said, I understand that it may be difficult to act as a true representative of such a potent entity, that it may be impossible for you to discribe the true beauty of your faith in terms which don't make my guts turn to jelly, and I've led a hard enough life, so if the higher power you've put in charge of your life can make my life better and easier, I'm willing to accept all the help I can get, but I'm going to need proof--in the form of cash. After all, Christianity already had 1 shot at my soul, and it blew it.

So if you're willing to take a *real* leap of faith in God and Humanity, and send me $50,000 in U.S. currency to prove to me God's generosity to His faithful(what's money, compared to the strength of your religion? Small bills, please-and no consecutive serial numbers.), then I'm prepaired to consider your arguments, and to accept your money, and to spend it, verily.

I don't have $50,000, so I'll skip over the rest of your offer.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Obviously, not all Christians are missionaries, not all missionaries are poisonous, and the Christian message isn't always "You Will Be Assimilated".

The Church is not the Borg. Christianity does not require you to become a certain race, abandon your language, or turn your back on your culture. There are Christians in every culture on Earth.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We're all adults here, and it's behaviour that we should have left behind with the 3rd grade--and good riddance! We're just putting a new spin on "My dad can beat up your dad", using bigger words and concepts, and pretending that it somehow makes it all so luminous and deep. It's a bull**** argument that we continue to beat like the well and truly dead horse that it is, because it's easier to sit here and argue about than it is to identify real problems that face all of us, work together openly and respectfully to find a solution, and to then take that solution and act on it. It's fear and distrust, and lack of real hope and faith in ourselves and our abilities, and we let those things separate us.

If your point is that we should all work together to face common problems, then I agree with you completely. We should never let our religious differences get in the way of being good people.

However, if your point is that we should just table all of our differences and pretend that we agree ... then I can't agree with you. But there should be no need to do so!

If you want to feed a hungry person, and I want to feed a hungry person, then there's no reason that we should fight about who gets to feed hungry people. Let's both feed the hungry. As we feed the hungry, I'll be telling them about Jesus. You may choose to tell them about something else, or not to tell them anything. That's your choice. But here's my point: Both of us can still feed hungry people! "My" hungry person will simply get an introduction to the Gospel to go with his meal. Why should that bother anyone?

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We have enough reasons to argue and fight and hate and resent one another, as human beings.
We don't need our spiritual sides and nobler natures-and arguably those things which are the *best* parts of us-to give us yet another reason for antagonism.

Agreed. I think we've done an excellent job of being good neighbors right here on this very discussion thread. Nobody has shouted at anyone else. Nobody hates anyone else. (At least, I hope not!) We're discussing one of the most contentious topics of all time, and we're managing to be polite & respectful while we do it.

Tolerance doesn't require us to all agree with each other. Instead, tolerance allows us to disagree with each other as long as we are respectful while we do it.

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

We're all on this world together, at the same time, and we'd be smarter and stronger and better, if we just helped one another out, without also asking that they become more like us.

Agreed. Shalom!

[Bwaha]

To anyone who tried the experiment of finding Jesus,(see my previous post) If you got the tingle,(indwelling of the Holy Ghost) and have any questions please pm me. These guys who want to argue are missing the simplicity of the whole message. Read first John, all of it. Its small. Enjoy.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

These guys who want to argue are missing the simplicity of the whole message.

Hey there Bwaha

I am a guy "wanting to argue" - I'd call debating more appropriate. As you may have read, I already have some knowledge of the Bible too.
And I just can't agree that the "whole message" of the book and religion is simple. That's why we're discussing it in a ton of posts from different points of views here, and we're just scratching the surface. And that's why Bible has been discussed for centuries at this moment and still people have plenty of doubts.
The message is big and difficult and has many faces which go to involve all the aspects of a person's life - a message which for this reason may be shared or not, accepted or not I don't, JimMorrison doesn't, you and SlipperyJim do, Ich does (with some reserves AFAIK ), and we're all analyzing it. But its' not simple ^_^

Best wishes

[Bwaha]

I agree with you on the depth of the subject. That being said, I know some people were touched thru this discussion. Those people need the message kept simple because they are babies. I won't go into the higher mysteries because it will confuse them.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Read first John, all of it.

It has always baffled me why so many of my fellow Christians recommend that people start with the Gospel of John. John is the most opaque and allegorical of the Gospels, far and away the hardest of the four to grasp the message of.

If someone is curious about Jesus, I recommend they start with the Gospel of Mark. It's the shortest and most straightforward telling of Jesus' ministry (and believed to be the earliest written down). What I'd recommend after Mark would depend on what questions it brought up for you.