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  #61  
Old July 24th, 2003, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

What value would lowering the max have?

I think it's neat to be able to theoretically spend 9500 points on combat abilities. More importantly, having a very high maximum expenditure gives more room for trade-offs in empire design, and less incentive to "go for the max".

Moreover, the design goal for the mod was to correct balance simply by changing empire point costs, without changing what the things actually do.

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  #62  
Old July 24th, 2003, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

True. Again, although that's a great method for making maintenance more understandable, the idea of the mod was just to change the costs, not the effects.

Suddenly I'd have to mod vehiclesize.txt, which would mean it couldn't work seamlessly with (on top of) other mods.

I guess there could be a variant though that would be for mods which use your maintenance correction - is there a set of mods that all use the same values? (Proportions uses this, but it already has the empire costs balanced, and I assume P&N does too).

PvK

Quote:
Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The Last entry regarding Maintenance Reduction implies that you're not using the corrective settings so that 1% maintenance reduction means you pay 1% less for ships.

Settings.txt:
Base maintenance := 100

vehiclesize.txt:
All ship get maintenance reduction of 75% (instead of 0%)
All bases get maintenance reduction of 88% (instead of 50%)
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  #63  
Old July 29th, 2003, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

Ok, I've done practically everything except for the Cultures, which need to be based on final values for everything else, so it's time for feedback! Object to values now, or be grumbled at in future!

New to this Version are values for Political Savvy, and the Resource, Construction, Repair, and Maintenance aptitudes.

Traits:
=======

Advanced Power Conservation:
============================
* Cost lowered from 1000 to 500.

This trait was rarely used, and while helpful, was not nearly as useful as other 1000-point traits.

Mechanoids:
===========
* Cost lowered from 1000 to 250.

This trait was probably never used by a skilled player in a competitive game. I have played many unmodded games, and have never been attacked by a plague bomb, and the few natural and espionage plagues have been easily cured for little cost and little effect. Moreover, empires with this advantage are immediately identified as such, so only an unobservant player would ever try to use a plague attack on a Mechanoid player. 250 points seems about right for this minor advantage, and removes the "balance penalty" for roleplaying mechanoid races.

Lucky:
======
* Cost lowered from 1000 to 250.

The practical value of this varies depending on the game settings for random events. In many games, it will not be worth very much. In games with catastrophic events, at 250 points it becomes a kind of dare to risk not taking it. Since the effects vary, and if multiple empires take it, they counteract each other, and since frequently this has little effect, it seemed to make sense to reduce it to a minor cost, which removes the amount of "wasted points" for empires which take Lucky in games where it won't have much or any effect.

Natural Merchants, Propulsion Experts, Ancient Race and Hardy Industrialists:
================================================== ===========================
* All left at 1000 points.

These all seem of roughly equivalent value to me. Ancient Race can be abused in some gamey ways, but gives no advantage beyond knowledge, so opponents can get more permanent advantages. Hardy Industrialists may be more or less efficient compared to construction aptitude, depending on how it's used, but it can be combined with it to reach the highest levels of construction rate, which some players use in their grand strategies.

Advanced Storage Techniques:
============================
* Cost increased from 1000 to 2000 points.

This one was pretty much universally accepted as the best 1000-point unmodded advantage, for its many effects and side-effects on facilities, starting strength, population, and cargo space. 2000 points seems about right to me compared to the other adjusted values.

Emotionless:
============
* Cost reduced from 3000 to 1750 (net 2200 to net 1000 when minimizing Happiness).

This is a very useful ability for lazy or new players, as well as for large empires that suffer damage that would otherwise make the entire empire riot and fall. Almost no competitive players were thinking twice about paying 2200 points for it, however. At 1000 net points, I'd say it's a good deal, and a valid choice for roleplayers.

Racial Technologies:
====================
* Most remain at 1500 points.

After the many discussions over the years, it seems to me that these are all fairly well balanced and rated at 1500 points. They can all seem too powerful or too expensive if one doesn't appreciate all of their abilities and counter-tactics.

Deeply Religious:
=================
* Cost increased to 2000 points.

This is because the compensation for reducing Aggressiveness by a small amount has been greatly increased. Essentially, an average Religious player is expected to take a -5 in Aggressiveness, for a net cost of 1500 points.

Attributes:
===========

Physical Strength:
==================
* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 3.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 10.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5.
* Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 3.

Minimizing troop strength to 50 now only provides 150 points.
Maximizing troop strength to 150 now only costs 230 points.

Intelligence:
=============
* Basic cost increased from 25 to 50.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 10.
* Positive threshold cost lowered from 100 to 75.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40.

This means "the cheap bonus" is +10 for 500 points, instead of +20 for 500 points.
+20 costs 1250 points, and +50 would cost 3500.
Playing a "dumb" race is now more viable - a 90% race gets 500 points, while a 50% race gets 2100.

Cunning:
========
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 10.
* Positive threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10

This means less can be gained by lowering cunning, and raising it is more expensive between 110% and 122%, but less expensive for a heavy spymaster race over 122%. Maximum 150% Cunning costs 1850 points. Minimum 50% gains 650 points.
Part of the reason for the overall reduction is that defensive intelligence projects have multipliers to their effectiveness, so even a 50% Cunning empire can build up fairly effective defenses against a single antagonist without a lot of effort. The other reason is that concentrating in intelligence seemed very expensive for the amount of advantage gained. 150% Cunning in the unmodded game costs 3500 points, which is way more than it was worth compared to other advantages.

Environmental Resistance:
=========================
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 0.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 12.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 18.

This follows Imperator Fyron's information that 5% in this is like 1% in Happiness and 1% in Reproduction. Threshold reduced to zero since this effect is divided by 5 so the actual range is -10 to +10, and zero threshold allows different rates for low-level increases versus decreases, which need to be balanced differently to avoid "free points" schemes with offsetting choices for Reproduction or Happiness. Since it requires raising both at once and thus offers less flexibility, I devalued it 2 per point (almost insignifigant).

Reproduction:
=============
* Basic cost raised from 25 to 50.

Basic cost is raised because although population isn't a huge factor in unmodded games, a 1% change is about a 10% change relative to the base rate, and low rates can cut reproduction to 0% or a few % under bad circumstances, which becomes a relevant effect. The minimum setting will only earn 450 points, and is a meaningful disadvantage.

Happiness:
==========
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 0.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 15.

Threshold lowered to zero in order to reduce reward for lowering happiness a small amount, since in the unmodded game a little unhappiness is easy to counter with troops. A lot of unhappiness can be a problem however, so the Negative Threshold cost was increased. Positive Threshold can be low, because for the most part, a high value gives diminishing benefits which can be accomplished by others using troops. Minimum setting of -50 gives 750 points (and would be hard to survive long enough to develop troops before riots took over). Maximum setting of +50 costs 2000 points.

Aggressiveness:
===============
* Basic cost raised from 25 to 100.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 5.
* Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 175.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 50.

The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 4000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1500 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. I would increase the Negative Threshold value a bit, except that Racial techologies such as Talisman or Event Predictor can compensate for minimized Aggressiveness.

Defensiveness:
==============
* Basic cost raised from 25 to 100.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 5.
* Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 225.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40.

The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 5000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1300 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. Defensiveness is of slightly more value than Aggressiveness at the high end (because enemies start to become nearly incapable of hitting), and less valuable at the low end (because enemies start to always hit, and shields and armor can also protect).

Political Savvy:
================
* Basic cost increased from 25 to 50.
* Threshold unchanged at 20.
* Positive Threshold cost unchanged at 100.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 20.

This attribute's value depends on the number of trade partners, their Savvy, the player's goals, and game circumstances such as they player's relative size, and intelligence attacks which disrupt trade. One benchmark and not uncommon example is five established trade partners of equal size. In this case the player with average Savvy will double his income in resources, likely research, and potentially, intelligence. On the other hand, the player also gives the same to his trade partners (many or all of who may be eventual opponents), and without trade partners, this attribute has no value at all. An interesting side-effect is that an informed player may prefer low-Savvy trade partners to high-Savvy trade partners. The value thus cannot be absolutely evaluated, but is somewhere between the value of increasing all of the resource aptitudes and intelligence and cunning, and zero.

I first estimated it by adding the values for Mining Aptitude to the values for Intelligence. Then I noticed the large values this generated, and considered that warlike races who don't plan to trade much, probably should not get much more than 1500 points. I also considered that powerful empires may choose not to trade in order to avoid sharing their success, so devaluing Savvy may tend to slightly reduce the runaway success of large empires. In almost any game however, it still seems more valuable than simple Mining Aptitude, so I compromised at double the value of Mining Aptitude.

Lowering to 80% gains 1000 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 1600 points. Raising to 120% costs 1000 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4000 points.

Mining Aptitude:
================
* Basic cost unchanged at 25.
* Threshold unchanged at 20.
* Positive Threshold cost reduced from 100 to 50.
* Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10.

Everyone needs minerals. This seemed like a good baseline ability to remain unchanged, but the cost of maximizing seemed too high (3500 points for 150% minerals seemed excessive). Dropping to 80% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 800 points. Raising to 120% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 2000 points.

Farming Aptitude:
=================
* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22.
* Threshold unchanged at 20.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45.
* Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8.

Even Organic races need fewer organic resources than minerals, so these values are slightly less than Mining Aptitude. Dropping to 80% gains 440 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 680 points. Raising to 120% costs 440 points and maximizing to 150 costs 1790 points.

Refining Aptitude:
==================
* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22.
* Threshold unchanged at 20.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45.
* Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8.

Radioactives are about as needed as organics in the unmodded game, taking racial and high-tech costs into account. Organic races will naturally prefer Farming Aptitude to Refining Aptitude, and Crystalline races the opposite, which is natural and not really a balance issue. Costs are identical.

Construction Aptitude:
======================
* Basic cost increased from 25 to 50.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 10.
* Positive Threshold cost unchanged at 100.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40.

Construction rate is one of the more important attributes. One can compare to the Hardy Industrialists trait, which gives +25% to planetary spaceyards only, for 1000 points. The limitation to planetary yards is important, because many more shipyards can be built in space. Realize too that the two can be combined for cumulative effect. Reducing to half would be quite a significant disadvantage. Dropping to 90% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 2100 points. Raising to 110% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4500 points.

Repair Aptitude:
================
* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 1.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10.
* Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10.

Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one-percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Dropping to 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points.

Maintenance Aptitude:
=====================
* Basic cost increased from 50 to 150.
* Threshold lowered from 10 to 5.
* Positive Threshold cost increased from 200 to 300.
* Negative Threshold cost increased from 5 to 100.

The counterintuitive way this works has not been changed, to maintain compatibility with the unmodded game, and with many mods. It is a very important attribute, paticularly at high levels. Lowering it was undervalued. No change ("100") gives maintenance costs of 25% of build cost per ship per turn. Dropping to "95" results in 30% maintenance costs and gains 750 points. Minimizing to "80" results in 45% maintenance costs and gains 2250 points. Raising to "105" results in 20% maintenance costs and costs 750 points. Maximizing to "120" results in 5% maintenance costs and costs 5250 points.

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  #64  
Old July 29th, 2003, 04:44 AM

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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

very interesting thread...

have you played any pbw games with this yet?
how have players reacted?
so far, i think you're fairly reasonable about balancing things, good work
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  #65  
Old July 29th, 2003, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

Not yet with these specific numbers. Once there are no objections I'll do the Cultures and post the files, and we can see if there are changes wanted to the system as a whole.

Proportions has similar balances to starting costs, though not quite the same. Of course, the whole rest of the mod emphasizes different styles of play and people tend to be trying it out more than minimaxing anyway. However, the empires I've seen tend to be much more diverse, with far fewer players using the standard exploits such as maxing combat abilities. There are some who do, or who max out other things like maintenance reduction, or get religious and lower Aggressiveness (but in Proportions PBW that's not a great idea since you will probably never achieve the ultimate Talisman).

Anyway I think the result is much more use of the abilities which are uncommon in unmodded play, and players who try to max out the usual suspects find they have to pick and choose, and need to sacrifice a lot in other areas.

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  #66  
Old July 29th, 2003, 06:36 PM

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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

Quote:
Originally posted by PvK:
Racial Technologies:
====================
* Most remain at 1500 points.

After the many discussions over the years, it seems to me that these are all fairly well balanced and rated at 1500 points. They can all seem too powerful or too expensive if one doesn't appreciate all of their abilities and counter-tactics.
PvK
I was thinking you might want to lower the costs of all the racial traits, and maybe just all traits globally. Since it will be much harder to scrape up "free" points by lowering the unimportant stats, you will effectively have less points to spend. Since you have less points, this means that trait costs will take up a bigger proportion of your available points.

For example, in the standard game, by lowering stuff like Strength, Farming, Repair you could generally eek out another 3000 points with little effect on your empire. So in a 2000 point game, you in effect have 5000 points to spend on stuff, and taking a 1500 point Racial Trait is very doable. However, if you take away those 3000 freebies, the relative costs of many of the Traits might be too high.

Just a thought...
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  #67  
Old July 29th, 2003, 06:38 PM

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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

I think PvK intended to make it more difficult, spoon.
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  #68  
Old July 29th, 2003, 06:52 PM

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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

Quote:
Originally posted by PvK:
Repair Aptitude:
================
* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10.
* Threshold lowered from 20 to 1.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10.
* Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10.

Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one-percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Dropping to 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points.
Much like Strength and Farming, Repair is a prime candidate for dropping to 50% when designing a race.

Personally I'd use these numbers:

* Basic cost lowered from 25 to 5.
* Threshold Stays at 20.
* Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5.
* Negative Threshold lowered to 1.
* Maximum value raised from 150 to 200

You'd see less 50%'s and maybe even some people who would put points into Repair (though not me - even if cost was lowered to 1 point, I would still drop it to 50%, as it just doesn't seem to have much impact on my play style).
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  #69  
Old July 29th, 2003, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

One of the main goals of the mod is to make it so that there are no obvious choices. If there are "freebies" that give more points than they are worth, then that is exactly the kind of imbalance this mod corrects.

There are still thousands of points available by reducing attributes - but now, to get a lot of points back, you actually have to incur a meaningful disadvantage.

Even in a 5000-point game, you shouldn't be able to "get all the good stuff" without taking some major disadvantages that can be exploited somehow. Otherwise, empire setup is unbalanced and limited to the "best" choices. The theory behind this mod is that by giving the "best" and "worst" empire traits balanced costs, most empire setups will be fairly even if played in a way that uses their advantages against enemy weaknesses.

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  #70  
Old July 29th, 2003, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)

Note that Adamant Mod uses most of the ideas from this, so they have been implemented somewhere.
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