From the mouth of Aristotle

[Cainehill]

Hey Zen, welcome back - I hate it when Arryn and I are the only honest (ie blunt) highly opinionated people who use logic.

Maybe now you're not busy moderating, you'll have more of a chance to play. I'd love to show how much I've improved from my Turmoil 3, Luck 3 days. (It's _so_ much better with Turmoil 2, Luck 3. )

[Demosthenes]

I'm pleased you're back Zen.

[liga]

Welcome back Zen!!!

Thanks to the one that cast "Ritual of Ribirth" ... how many death gemes ?

One of the biggest Hero in the Dom2 all of fame is now back in the world!

So now I can start to bother again you with my perpetual request about you BSQR ?

good play ... that's really a good beginning for a raining day of work!

Liga

[Stormbinder]

Zen said:

No, I ignored all your Messages because you got placed in the special place that is /ignore where people who pester you relentlessly for no reason <skiped>

For the sake of keeping this discusion civil and polite, I am skiping the rest of your message with all its insults.


You said that you have not seen my Messages because they were put on "ignore". All right, let's assume that it was the case here. Now you have seen this message. So I ask you to remove your script and stop baning me from the channel, that you almost never visit yourself these days. I am currently in several Dom2 games with most other Dom2 channel regulars, and we meet on IRC to talk and discuss our trades and diplomacy daily. You, on the other hand, are almost never there.

But even if you are going to start visiting and spending there most of your time, as you used to do before you "retired" and put me on "ban" list as your parting gift, it does not matter, since I am there to talk with my in-game friends and partners, that's all. For good or for bad it is the only active Dom2 channel around that is visited by this forum's regulars at this moment, and you know it.



So, I am going to say this here in public: Zen, I have no intentions of speaking to you in Dom2 IRC channel ever again.

Here, I've said that. Therefore there are no possible reasons for you to keep kicking me from the channel every time you log in. Unless of course you are recieving a pervent pleasure from abusing whatever little power you may have over other people around you, and causing them grief simply because you can.



So will you please deactivate your IRC script? You can even put me on your "ignore list" if you like, however that would not be nessesery since as I said I have no intention or interest of speaking to you whatsoever.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

As I said above, they studied them, not employed them. I think you are mistranslating the word "used" in the context being discussed.

Well you showed simply that you either didn't read my full post or made the wrong quoting with purpose .

The whole sentence was

Furthermore as you said they used captured soviet tanks from the Arabs very inventive for e.g. their APC Achzarit .

So a few words further in the sentence i gave you the PRACTICAL example how they used them .

And what about the Tiran 4/5 tanks ? They were captured T54/55 which Israel used a long time first without much modifications , later with new turrets / armor improvements and now because they became obsolete they removed the turret and built their APC Achzarit out of them . This is very inventive as i wrote and you say they didn't employ them .

[Boron]

Zen said:

Ah, the F-22 Raptor is definitive of it's generation of Stealth Class combat aircraft. Unfortunately it costs more than you will make in 3 generations, not including it's armaments or navigation systems. I doubt there is or will be another national aircraft that will compare to it and it's subsequent Versions for another 10 years.

Though considering the outlandish contracts given to military contractors at this point (due to federal funding) by the US Government you'd be hard pressed to find another nation with that kind of budget.

Unfortunately the info at www.af.mil which is the official government site Afaik is very small .
Basically thats all :

Prior to its selection as winner of what was then known as the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition, the F/A-22 team conducted a 54-month demonstration/ validation (dem/val) program. The effort involved the design, construction and flight testing of two YF-22 prototype aircraft. Two prototype engines, the Pratt & Whitney YF119 and General Electric YF120, also were developed and tested during the program. The dem/val program was completed in December 1990.

Much of that work was performed at Boeing in Seattle, Lockheed (now known as Lockheed Martin) facilities in Burbank, Calif., and at General Dynamics' Fort Worth, Texas, facilities (now known as Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems). The prototypes were assembled in Lockheed's Palmdale, Calif., facility and made their maiden flight from there. Since that time Lockheed's program management and aircraft assembly operations have moved to Marietta, Ga., for the EMD and production phases.

A $9.55 billion contract for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) of the F/A-22 was awarded to the industry team of Boeing and Lockheed Martin in August 1991. Contract changes since then have elevated the contract value to approximately $11 billion. Under terms of the contract, the F/A-22 team will complete the design of the aircraft, produce production tooling for the program, and build and test nine flightworthy and two ground-test aircraft.

In February 1995, the Air Force customer approved the final design of the F/A-22 air vehicle and confirmed that the program was ready to proceed to fabrication and assembly. The Air Force plans to procure 339 F/A-22s, and production is scheduled to run through 2013.

A press release from 5/17/2004 :

The cost (for the F/A-22) is coming down,” he said. “In fact, a year ago Dr. Marvin R. Sambur (assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition) was able to negotiate 21 planes for the price of 20.”

Secretary Roche said that Raptors now cost less than $150 million per copy. The price tag should come down even further as the program continues to stabilize, he said.

From www.globalsecurity.org :

In mid-2002 the Defense Department was assessing the F-22 program as part of a review directed by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that called for an option to reduce the quantity of program to 180 from 295. That's less than one-fourth the initial plan for 750 planes. As of 2002, DOD had spent $26 billion of the $69 billion planned for the F-22 program. All four defense committees in Congress had approved the request for $4.6 billion in fiscal 2003 to buy 23 aircraft; 10 were being purchased in FY2002.

Air Force officials announced 07 November 2002 a potential cost overrun of up to $690 million in the engineering, manufacturing and development phase of the F/A-22 program. The potential overrun appeared to be related to achieving cost and schedule in the developmental phase of the program, officials said. It is not related to its technology or performance. The aircraft remains on schedule for first aircraft delivery in 2004 and initial operational capability in 2005 as planned. The projected overrun is about 3.3 percent of the program's $20 billion development phase and about 1 percent of the program's $69.7 billion estimated total pricetag. The Pentagon approved an $876 million restructure to finance the extended development effort. The restructure sliced $763 million from the procurement profile, cutting 49 airframes from years 2004 to 2009. This decision brought the procurement profile from 325 to 276 through FY-09.

Code:

---

          DOD's Projected Unit

                 Prices Before and After Restructuring

                                    Production

                            --------------------------

                              Low-rate     Full-rate

                            ------------  ------------

                            Units   Unit  Units   Unit

Estimates                           cost          cost  

--------------------------  ----  ------  ----  ------  

Before restructuring          76  $142.6   362  $102.8

Restructured without          70  $200.3   368  $128.2

 initiatives

Restructured with             70  $200.8   368  $ 92.4

 initiatives

------------------------------------------------------



  

---

It is costy but don't you think it is worth it ?
The only Fighter which could perhaps beat a F-22 Raptor would have been the Mig 1.44 but unless they get financial aid from e.g. China they won't probably develop it further .

And what is your opinion about the Joint Strike Fighter ?

[Boron]

Battlefront , the publisher of your mentioned combat mission series has a game called Strategic command too and now develops a sucessor .
Did you play this game too Stormbinder or anyone else ?

[tinkthank]

Hey, Zen, welcome back!!
Great to have you back.
Sorry your thread got... waylaid. But since it already is....

Cainehill said:

Hey Zen, welcome back - I hate it when Arryn and I are the only honest (ie blunt) highly opinionated people who use logic.

I normally don't mind that fact that I am ignored, but at least grant me opinionatedness and logic!

[Arryn]

Boron said:
And what about the Tiran 4/5 tanks ? They were captured T54/55 which Israel used a long time first without much modifications , later with new turrets / armor improvements and now because they became obsolete they removed the turret and built their APC Achzarit out of them . This is very inventive as i wrote and you say they didn't employ them .

My apology. I was wrong about that. I was unaware of the Israeli Tiran series tanks, as they were all withdrawn from service by Israel before I served in the US Army. (There was Tiran 6, also, which was a captured T62. Israel never had more than 100 of these.)

The Achzarit has been so heavily modified/rebuilt that it hardly counts. About the only thing that's original is the base hull and road wheels. The suspension, engine, controls, weapons, and pretty much everything else has been changed. The only thing the Israelis have done by re-using the base chassis is save themselves the cost/effort of casting a new hull. Still, technically you are correct in that they did use them since rather than casting a new hull for a new APC they reused captured hulls.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Battlefront , the publisher of your mentioned combat mission series has a game called Strategic command too and now develops a sucessor .
Did you play this game too Stormbinder or anyone else ?

I have. It's a simplistic beer&pretzels clone of an AH Third Reich-style game. Play HoI instead.