Up to date beta patch info..

[Atrocities]

No presure, but do you think the new patch will be out later this week?

[dmm]

1) Too many complaints about the AI. The truth is that computers are stupid, and it is hard to keep them from doing stupid things. You wind up having to script its behavior, and then it doesn't take a bright human very many games to figure out the flaws.

2) Personally, I don't mind the dumb AI because my time is so limited. I just want to have fun for a few hours. And SEIV delivers.

3) SEIV's AI is comparable to a lot of games that I've played. For example, Red Alert is pretty easy to beat, once you know how. Successive releases in that series have gotten smarter, but are still no match for a good human player. Same with Alpha Centauri.

4) For those who are frustrated by the AI stupidity in certain areas, here are some suggestions:
i) Make some technology unavailable, or just don't use it. Example: Mines, which the AI seems to have lots of trouble with.
ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun.
iii) Give the AI advantages. Examples: Use the setup button that allows it to produce faster. Don't use all your race points, or use them to enhance role play rather than to insure victory. Give the AI a head start.
iv) Don't exploit known weaknesses that you feel are unrealistic. Examples: Don't use stolen technology immediately; wait a bit. Don't remain allies with two warring AI empires, all the time ignoring their diplomatic ultimatums; choose one and reject the other. Don't demand anyone's home planet as tribute and don't accept it if offered.


Yes, in some ways these suggestions would limit the game, but the point is that you can have a lot of fun with the stupid AI. Then you can remove restrictions as MM improves the AI, and it will be like getting periodic expansion packs.

5) The debate about AI opponents vs human opponents is missing an important point: most games have inherent flaws which will be exploitable by an experienced human opponent, which eventually either ruins the game or turns it into a chess match. So after a while, human players aren't much more fun than AI. But SEIV has a lot of complicatedness and customizability, so hopefully it won't get old so fast. Every time you find "the way to win" you can mod the files and take that way away.

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 18 December 2000).]

[dmm]

1) Too many complaints about the AI. The truth is that computers are stupid, and it is hard to keep them from doing stupid things. You wind up having to script its behavior, and then it doesn't take a bright human very many games to figure out the flaws.

2) Personally, I don't mind the dumb AI because my time is so limited. I just want to have fun for a few hours. And SEIV delivers.

3) SEIV's AI is comparable to a lot of games that I've played. For example, Red Alert is pretty easy to beat, once you know how. Successive releases in that series have gotten smarter, but are still no match for a good human player. Same with Alpha Centauri.

4) For those who are frustrated by the AI stupidity in certain areas, here are some suggestions:
i) Make some technology unavailable, or just don't use it. Example: Mines, which the AI seems to have lots of trouble with.
ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun.
iii) Give the AI advantages. Examples: Use the setup button that allows it to produce faster. Don't use all your race points, or use them to enhance role play rather than to insure victory. Give the AI a head start.
iv) Don't exploit known weaknesses that you feel are unrealistic. Examples: Don't use stolen technology immediately; wait a bit. Don't remain allies with two warring AI empires, all the time ignoring their diplomatic ultimatums; choose one and reject the other. Don't demand anyone's home planet as tribute and don't accept it if offered.


Yes, in some ways these suggestions would limit the game, but the point is that you can have a lot of fun with the stupid AI. Then you can remove restrictions as MM improves the AI, and it will be like getting periodic expansion packs.

4) The debate about AI opponents vs human opponents is missing an important point: most games have inherent flaws which will be exploitable by an experienced human opponent, which eventually either ruins the game or turns it into a chess match. So after a while, human players aren't much more fun than AI. But SEIV has a lot of complicatedness and customizability, so hopefully it won't get old so fast. Every time you find "the way to win" you can mod the files and take that way away.

[God Emperor]

Dmm,
Agree with you entirely. I stopped using mines several games ago and have begun to avoid doing things that I know the AI is weak at - still enjoy the game anyway. The ultimate challenge as we all know is human opponents so the AI should be considered as practice. I always try to play in the manner that I would against a human opponent and avoid taking advantage of the AI's blind spots - only the blind spot concerning mines is annoying as it makes it hard to practice tactics.

Anyway, the important thing is that the game system hangs together well, has many options (game and strategy) and is very flexible.

[Freyland]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dmm:


ii) Role play. There are tons of options here. Examples: Pretend your race's sense of honor won't allow it to attack an enemy with overwhelming odds. Pretend your race is technophobic. Pretend your race is pacifist. Pretend your race is cowardly. Etc., etc., etc. Use your imagination and have some fun.

---

Hi DMM

I remember doing that with Lords of Magic (awesome game, once fixed {rant, rant})... it was kind of silly that the all-powerful, all-feared Evil Villain could be killed early if you hit his Stack with the right units. So, I "pretended" that to fight Balkoth, my stack had to have a Greater Artifact, otherwise they had to run. Made for interesting games.....

Jonathan

[Talenn]

dmm:

While I agree that the AI will never be up to human level competition, it would be nice if it was at least aggressive in it's attacks. As it is now, it blatantly ignores enemy fleets and worlds even when it has obviously superior firepower. This should not be the case and its something that should be readily fixable. Even SE3 didnt act this way most of the time, so I KNOW that it can be done within the framework of the game system.

Its one thing to 'roleplay' your race etc but its quite another to have to TRY not to win. I occasionally see large AI fleets and think 'cool, this time I actually might have to fight!', but no, next turn their ships are nowhere to be seen. Maybe one or two are left floating around but the rest are gone. Often, its to the scrapyard...

As far as multiplayer etc. Yes, I agree that that will be the true challenge, but at this time its hard to get a game going without the option of TCP-IP etc. PBEM is a HUGE commitment of time. Hotseat is fine, but its problematic getting people together for an ongoing game. So that primarily leaves single player. I'd daresay that most people are in the same boat in this regard and that is the reason for the general outcry about the AI's ability.

Customizing etc are fantastic abilities and will keep the game fresh longer. No doubt there. But you dont have to even look for ways to win the game. As long as you are halfway competent, its not too tough. All the added options in the world wont matter if you can win with ease regardless of what you do.

IMO, a strong(er) AI is a must for a 4X game. The AI must compete and it must give you the immersive feeling of dealing with alien/foreign governments. If it fails to do so, most of the rest doesnt count for much except for the people who can manage to get multiplayer time in.

SE4 is a great game with alot of potential. But lately I find that I am spending more time fiddling with data and graphics than playing. Its just not that much fun to continually pummel the AI even when I give my self 'roleplaying handicaps'. I want the AI to force me to run for cover or at least surprise me every now and then.

I am very much looking forward to the patch in hopes that it makes the game more challenging. No, I dont think it will ever provide the challenge of playing another human (nor should it be expected to), but it should at least look like it is attempting to win. IMO it should at least err on the side of aggression rather than on being too passive. That alone would breathe alot of life into the game.

Talenn

[jowe01]

Talenn, I agree 100%. Even when TCP/IP will be possible, there will still be AIs in the game (e.g., its mostly like this when you play CIV II over the web). The AI has to become a challenge if this game is to become a true winner.

Anyway, does anybody have news regarding the status of the new patch ? I mailed Aaron a bug report Last week, and in his answer he said that the patch would be out Last Friday or yesterday at latest. I rather see the delay as a good sign: maybe MM is working to include some real AI improvements (other than increased aggressiveness) before releasing the patch for the Christmas break.

BTW, to the extent that I find the current AI lousy, I find MM's responsiveness great. If you report a bug or make a suggestion, you usually have a short reply the next day. Do not flood them, but why do the programmers amongst you not try to help Aaron a little and send him some AI algorithms (e.g. target identification, "memory", ...)

[Richard]

Aaron found a late bug in the patch and held it back from being released. I should know more today and hopefully we can post it later today.

Thanks for the patience.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

[Cryptotec88]

Thank you very much for the update Richard!

[sogard]

The following was posted on the "What's New" page for Malfador Machinations:

12/19/00 - SE4 Patch 2 Available
The second patch for Space Empires IV will be available here on 12/20/00. This patch includes all previous patches. It includes numerous bug fixes plus the all new Combat Replay viewer. Much like a vcr, the Combat Replay will allow you to watch combats that are reported in your Log Window. See the manual pages for complete details.

We've added a link on our site to the Global 100 lists. If you like SE4, please take the time to vote for it!

In other news, Malfador Machinations is going on a much-needed vacation. We'll be closed down from December 20th through January 4th. You can still order the game through Shrapnel Games and visit their forums to talk with other players. We will not be answering any emails during this time. As soon as we're back, we'll continue work on the next patch, the Map Editor, and the Multiplayer enhancements!

Hope everyone has a very merry Christmas!