Mod: CBM 1.7 released

[Valerius]

If you'd like to add gem gens back into the game I'd suggest using gem generating summons rather than magic items, since monster modding is much more robust than item modding. Some of the advantages:

Differentiation & Limitation: one of the problems with clams is that anyone could (and did) make them so they didn't just benefit the nations that needed them and that they were forged in quantities only limited by the game engine. If you go to a summons based system using unique national summons you could say, for example, that Jotunheim gets 1 unique gem generating summon, while Bandar Log gets 4. Or you could vary the income per summon so that nations that needed gem gens got more out of their summons. You could also generate gems other than S/E/F in order to better match the character of a nation.

You could also vary the cost/research level of obtaining gem gens. A weak nation might be able to obtain their first gem gen summon at a low research level/cost while a more powerful nation will not be able to obtain any gem generating summons until much later/at a higher cost.

Originally Posted by Zeldor

Tartarians should be removed too and national troops boosted. I really want to see nations being still same nations even in late game. Not some homogenous mass that specialises in S and D. And uses all E to make more and more hammers or gear for tartarians.

I agree completely! And I think using summons to generate gems and even troops could help do this in a way magic items can't. As an example, what about a game setting that doubles your starting cap gem income, has a magic site frequency of around 20% and has gem generating national summons? Your gem income would be heavily skewed towards the paths of your national mages but you'd have some diversity in case you really needed a certain summon/magic item (and trade becomes more interesting since you won't necessarily have the gem income to forge some items or summon some units). As the game went on your gem income would increase but it would be in paths your nation specializes in. Of course you need viable troop and especially thug/SC options to spend these gems on. I think CBM does a good job making the various troop summons appealing and the EDM now provides thug/SC options in paths that didn't have them before (of course the ideal is national summons but not every nation has a good set of those). It's not perfect but I think it can be balanced. For example, one of the really tough things about death/blood nations is that they aren't impaired by darkness. You could remove Darkness as a researchable spell and allow D/B nations one or more unique summons that would autocast the spell. So it would be a tool but not one they could use on a large scale.

Reduce micro: instead of a clam generating 1 pearl and having dozens of clams you could have a summon generate several gems, making management of this resource easy.

Presence on the map: A frustrating thing about gem gens is that you can breach the walls of a castle that you know has clam holders and they'll just be transferred to another location. If the gem generator is an actual unit though it won't necessarily be able to escape. You can make these units of varying strength; perhaps some will be quite resistant to damage while others are vulnerable to even low level remote attack spells. Perhaps some are mobile while others are not. I think you can make the unit immune to being enslaved/charmed/etc so that while an opponent could eliminate your gem generating units they couldn't gain them for themselves (have to test this though). You could make them immobile, no leadership, negative magicboost - basically try to make it so all they can do is stay in one place and generate gems. It's not perfect (for instance you could prophetize them) but I think you could have house rules not to do that kind of thing.

Options: with the range of monster modding commands available you could do all sorts of interesting things. Maybe a summon that generates a large amount of gems for a few turns and then generates only a few gems but also dom summons allies? Or a D gem generating summon that also causes unrest and population loss?


Now the one problem here is that you can only add so many summons to the game. The next patch will help with this immensely. Until then, I still think you could implement something like this (I'd have to check to see how many free slots are available with CBM 1.6 or 1.7) though perhaps you'd have issues if you combined this with mod nations.

[Colonial]

I am a new player, and I must say. I am going to host my first few games with CBM 1.41 +EDM.

I don't much care for these radical shifts in magic items 1.6 and 1.7 have brought out. Although I guess I can understand that if you have been playing for a while change is refreshing.

Ideally I would like to see the CBM branch, with one copy staying as it is and one holding closer to the origional with these 6 items re-added, as well as possibly other changes.

Must everything with a strong unique effect be killed off to satisfy your cravings for mediocrity?

It seems to me that that is exactly what has happened. Its too bad.

[Zeldor]

I have played this game long enough to dislike anything that spoils the fun - the fun of playing different games. I just hate the late-game effect when every nation is the same. You seek earth gems to make more hammers to put more gear on tartarians. They make every game repetitive. And they give you nothing in exchange. Gemgens are about pure hoarding and being the best horder. If anyone wants that, then probably Dom is not the right game for him. Hammers and SDRs are about hording too - you just forge so you don't waste hammer time. SDRs make you want to forge it for every mage. They make you forge SDRs before making anything else with blood slaves.

So really, if you want to use that stuff and you don't mind late game being exactly the same for every nation, then spend few minutes with text editor and undo all changes that annoy you. It's very simple. But please, do not try to tell me gemgens are cool.

[TheConway]

I see a lot of talk about making "houserules" about gemgens. I gotta say that I do not see how those can possibly succeed. I suspect that finding someone willing to take the time to check the turn files is going to be very difficult, and i wouldn't be surprised if people who didn't believe they had a real shot at winning just decided "**** it, they won't check me anyways since I won't win" and ignore the rules. Unlike sickle farming, LAD abuse, or bogus orders, gem gen limits cannot be realistically checked in-game. Therefore I think such "house rules" are doomed.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Let me get this right, Zeldor: If people say that something that the game shipped with, but which you seriously dislike and consider a bad gameplay mechanic (such as gem generators, hammers, and SDR), is cool and wants to play with it then a) The game is probably not right for them, and b) They should not tell you that they consider it cool, because you know better.

I'll admit to being pretty arrogant myself, but I doubt I'd ever have the gall to tell other people as you are doing: "If you like the game mechanics the game shipped with, the game is probably not the right game for you". This may not have been what you intended to say, but it is what you ended up saying.

[TheConway]

Perhaps Zeldor's point would have been better phrased as "then CBM is not for you."

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

You do realize this would obsolete Lightweight Scale Mail? Not that that's necessarily bad...

Sounds good, toss out lightweight and make weightless cheaper.

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

[

Moving to 1-hand would definitely open up to potential situational use...

I'd say my suggestion falls short by a lot, for reference I always compare to the value weapons, in this case I'll pull out Kryss since it's same const level:
+ 2x attack
+ AP attack
+ Death poison
+ PR
- Const 6
- Cost 10 N

Moonblade:
+ 2x vs magic (I'd take just AP over this, less powerful, works on everything. same with 2x attack if less power vs magic but more versatility)
o Cost 5 S
- 2 hander
- Const 6

Really, I would make moonblade 1 hand AND give it either a) +MR b) slay magic or c) x3 vs magic creature, all of which are thematic and gives it an actual purpose. Up price to 10S with the above modification, and it would be a weapon that might actually be considered.

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

Do people make rings of the warrior? RE: the axe - how would it then compare vs. the heart finder?

I know I forge rings and axe often when I have blood access (they do well together even) as they cost practically nothing and are very usable for super economic thugs and general thug deterrent. Axe gives unresistable chest wound! where heart finder gives MR kill, both have their uses (SC deterrent vs animal/low MR slayer). I know from experience how daunting it is in terms of using thugs/SCs to find enemy flesheaters + warrior rings liberally sprinkled all over the place (for a pittance).

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

I think that 1H bane blade + shield is pretty much always better than the 2hand version, which leaves its utility down to units you were going to give a magic weapon to that don't already have shields and you don't want to invest another 5 gems into...

Right, about the only time you might forge 2H is if you don't plan on a shield, but then you'd still go for 1H because of the option and versatility of adding shield. Considering the situation you would use baneblade for (not heavy duty anti-thug/SC surely), the damage boost from 2H doesn't seem that good most of the time to justify giving up shield possibility, maybe if you keep 2H bane in const 0 and 1H bane in Const 2 or 4, or a large boost to 2H bane like AP or 1 AoE horror +0 effect.

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

All of these seem reasonable, in light of hammer removal. However, consider the impact of forging the hammer of the forge lord or hammer (potentially + forge lord pretender and/or early FoTA from Ulm) to churn out the above items.

Indeed, but that is true for all items, FoTA is nuts before, it's still gonna be nuts either way. hammer forge lord, forge lord and hammer are all going to skew things before and maybe a little more with the changes, they are powerful for sure but each with their price (rushing const, taking forge lord and burning pts on him, declaring war on the world), and all things considered, I don't think that's a bad thing in general until proven beyond a doubt that it's broken as hell and most games are won relying on them.

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

At that price, people might be include to do it just to get the corpse candles at the edge of the field.

Agree, it just might, and I'd be happy to see it instead of the usual vine, eye, gleaming gold and charcoal. changes to other never-seen shields might be in order too, so they can actually compete for player consideration.

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

Note that at 2A it's the same price as the air-based shields.

a 5 gem cut seems excessive I admit, but then most things that can use missile prot amulet would rather tend to use various shields. I will agree there are rare cases where for slot consideration you may use this instead, but really, for 10 gems, you can get a very solid shield that both block most arrow and do a hell of a lot more. So... I'm on the fence for this one, maybe a mini boost? (50% LR? tiny def boost?)

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

[

For the Sword of Swiftness, perhaps adding +1 or more attacks would be a better re-balance vs. a price drop?

Agree, 3 attacks would give swiftness actual use as anti-high def, or otherwise give it something or lower price, again compare it to Kryss:
same # of attack, no AP, no death poison, no PR, same gem cost (though using W rather then N), the only advantage is Const 4...

Same with axe of hate, you get a fatigue damage on hit which has its use, but would you trade it for kryss' list of utility for the same price? Though it does comes much earlier at Const 2, so I could actually see it stay as it is now when you need to kill something BIG before const 6 rolls around.

Edit: Zeldor's list looks pretty reasonable too, though I have little experience with artifacts (never gotten Const 8 early enough).

[Finalgenesis]

Nation balancing: LA ryleh

Some more suggestions for discussion:

LA Ryleh has sustainability problems, in any reasonable sized game they hit a point rather soon where they can no longer recruit mages or priest as your population dwindle to nothing, which you need to wring any use out of the chaff. On paper the various ways to help with their income is:

1) Luck - a) inconsistent. b) luck income is hit by your maintenance cost before you can spend them, making most of the smaller luck income event meaningless.

2) Fire gem - Even with alchemy stone if you manage to forge it, thats 13F per mage, 19F without. If you can make this feastible in a clamless game, I salute you.

3) Summon mage - your V spectre cost 25S, has only 4S path with none of the utility you can get out of mage. Their cost reflect their purpose: to make things go insane rather then replace your mages as buffer, battle mage, researchers ...etc. Honestly, it's almost the cost of a golem, or an elemental royalty if you consider wish conversion rate.

Finally, their freespawn chaff have a gold cost of 1, meaning every 15 of them have a 1 gold upkeep. Why do they take upkeep? Maenads don't require upkeep, why are my junkies and crazies asking for gold?

Some suggestions:

1. No upkeep for chaff, hell if it was moddable I'd suggest -2 gold cost for that matter to generate gold and require decision on using them or saving them for gold income.

2. national mage/priest summonable, though I can see various problems and abuse for this. Perhaps a spell to change 10S into 500 gold? So you can actually switch to a gem economy (as LA ryleh certain don't have the choice of gold economy). Your "spell" income would still get hit by maintenance so you want to do multiple casting in one go, the upper limit imposed by gold economy is still there since your spell income gets hit by maintenance before you get a chance to spent it. You'd still be disadvantaged since others get gold + gem economy (or blood+gem), while you can only run on gem economy with "free" chaff to "compensate".

3. Dom summoned cultist can have higher/random paths, currently they can possibly get 1S and abit crazy to boot. I can frankly imagine hedge wizards and witches getting the dreams and turning to your cult, god knows my summoned casters and mermage slaves go bonkers fast enough. With high insanity on them it is already a heavy enough penalty and make marching armies in formation diffioooOOOO shinyyyy!

4. LA National summon spell to call a small batch of random void monsters, more for flavor then anything else. The power of the void grows and the star spawns can now open the gate anywhere given preparation (lab).

LA ryleh strikes me as dripping with theme and oppurtunity to enhance their gameplay (not more powerful, but more different / weird / thought out). The void takes a small role in MA, and supposedly in LA the void has become much more significant, Spawns receive great dream powers (dream of ryleh), their void spectres can be called back and the voice influence sleepers around the world. I could easily see global spell (In the vein of soul gate for LA Ermor and carrion woods for Pan) for ryleh and greater access to void creatures, and other unusual mechanic to make goldless Ryleh work.

[chrispedersen]

Some improvements to Rlyeh are pretty easily moddable.
I'd suggest the following and then reanalyse:

1. replace water only free spawns with with amphibious. Mid+ you have no need for these troops, adn they become cost drain and micromanagement hell.

2. The immovable free spawns should be modded to other cthulu inspired units.

Personally my cbm mod replaced some of them with map move 1 dom spreading units.

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

1. replace water only free spawns with with amphibious. Mid+ you have no need for these troops, adn they become cost drain and micromanagement hell.

Agreed. I also think all freespawns should be 0 upkeep.

2. The immovable free spawns should be modded to other cthulu inspired units.
Personally my cbm mod replaced some of them with map move 1 dom spreading units.

IMO, a rare freespawn that is immobile and dom spreading would be cool. With movement I think it might be to powerful.

On top of that I'd suggest adding a silver mine or something to the capital, so you keep a trickle of gold after population is dead.