Blood?

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself.

IMHO it's worth pointing out that Truper lost in his example because he made several mistakes. He had the wrong equipment on his Ice Devil for the task, and sat still for several turns while his opponent brought in an appropriate counter.

In particular Wraith Swords don't work against 0 encumberance undead, Ice Devils can cast Quickness without needing 10 gems for boots, and one can expect the possibility of Mandragoras from C'tis and prepare with higher MR.

Even still it looks to me like he lost due to bad luck, as his Magic Resistance and defense should have been high enough to be mostly immune to Sleep Vines.

Keir,

I think you need to try them more in an MP situation instead of test-runs. Things take on a totally different light when dealing with living, breathing opponents. A 10 turn test run is all I'd ever take any credibility to tests, as it gives you a shaping of whatever strategy/tactic you're using more often than not tainted by MP experiance. After turn 10 most of what can be conjectured is hypothetical and dependant on circumstance(s) so it's irrelevant to make broad generalizations until you have quite a few games under your belt. Which with this game is more difficult than your standard twitch game. Especially since you'd have to play a single nation repeatedly against a diverse swath of opponents.

Scout blood hunting is the only issue I think needs to be addressed. Whether it was intended or not; I'd prefer to know. Because it seems that the 'added benefit of blood magic' nations don't have any sort of edge with it. the scouts ease of getting slaves and low requirements for getting the 'good' blood spells (HfH and ID's) lets any race early (if they have mages or find some) or later use blood magic just as effectively. Maybe an added bonus to searching for an entire nation (Like Mictlan or Pangaea) could represent some sort of difference.

[Jasper]

I like the idea of varrying the effectiveness of most units blood hunting according to the controlling faction!

A similar thought is to varry the effectivess of hunters depending on the power of blood mages present. So mundane units couldn't find slaves without blood mage present to tell them where to look, and hunting efficiency would increase (but taper off) as more/more-powerfull blood mages are added.

This way nations with access to blood mages would have an advantage, without hard coding it. It would also give you some reason to recruit blood mages beyond the few needed to summon demons.

[Windreaper]

Ok, I suppose I could add my two cents here since the topic is sort of close to my heart.

First, I seriously dislike trampling supercombatants mainly due to fatigue issues. They're just too darn easy to lose. Also, high mr and some reinvigoration are a must with any supercombatant, wraith sword or not. Boots of the messenger is especially good for ice devil since he doesn't really need the slot for anything else. Getting hit by sleep/stellar cascades/sleep vines and such can otherwise really ruin your day. Antimagic amulet is bare minimum mr boost you should get. I'd consider starshine skullcap mandatory, however.

As people mentioned before, supercombatants should be used with an army because they're just too easy to lose - spells like wind ride and mind hunt, for example, can put hurt to single commanders no matter who they are. Also, with an army you usually have access to Relief which really helps to keep your SC alive.

EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Weapons: wraith sword, blood thorn (low dmg but allows for a shield)
Shields: Not a big issue since they're nowadays downgraded but with blood thorn I'd probably use the lucky coin/lead shield (vine shield and eye shield are also good for special occasions).
Helmets: spirit helmet, horror helmet, starshine skullcap (again, depending on how much mr I need, usually the latter) expensive gemwise 99,9% of the time, however). Fire helmet and wraith crown are also ok if you're _really_ swimming in gems.
Armor: elemental hauberk, rainbow armor, hydra skin armor or alternatively shadow cloak/bless shirt if you got no prot issues or invulnerability cloak if you got absolutely no other uses for gems :PP
Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)
Misc: regen ring, antimagic amulet, luck pendant (all these are pretty standard, if I get regen through hydra skin, for example I replace regen ring with luck pendant but consider the first two mandatory unless the SC already regens).

EDIT: decided to add example ID for early game (all items const 4)

Weapon: wraith sword
Helmet: horror helm
Armor: elemental hauberk
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

The result is a bit weak in the mr department (22) but otoh it got full elemental immunity, high prot and some reinvigoration to fend of extra fatigue from the hauberk. Later in the game you should really try to upgrade him to stand up to nasty summons and such.

Later game ID:

Weapon: blood thorn
Shield: lucky coin
Armor: elemental hauberk
Helmet: starshine skullcap
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

mr is slightly higher. Use of shield increased prot and defence and introduced luck with only a slight reduction in damage. If facing magic-heavy nations you could consider exchanging either the armor or shield for the mr Versions (lead shield, rainbow armor).

[ January 09, 2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

[Jasper]

Good example! Interesting that you consider the Starshine Skullcap mandatory, although with the new power of Paralyze I can begin to see why.

IMHO you can still use Ice Devils solo for raiding or taking on small forces (just not full armies). The trick is to move lots of scouts with them, which you then unstealth as chaff.

Now if only we could draw Wendigo into the discussion... I'd love to hear his thoughts on Super Combatants, especially in Dom 2.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Agree on every point, except the Messenger boots. Flying is an awesome ability to get on Ice devils (more for strategical than tactical reasons). I was fond of starshine skullcaps and rainbow armors for my SCs in Doms 1.

An idea that might be worth trying: give your IDs Bone armors (those with builtin Soul Vortex) - they're expensive but as long as there's a living creature in the vicinity you've got fatigue recovery even if unconscious. And that might win you a battle even if paralyzed.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
As people mentioned before, supercombatants should be used with an army because they're just too easy to lose - spells like wind ride and mind hunt, for example, can put hurt to single commanders no matter who they are. Also, with an army you usually have access to Relief which really helps to keep your SC alive.

Agree.

Interesting post - must study it at my leasure.

On the SC topic I've been having fun with Utgard Jotun Herses and Jarls and high nature (10) and some fire(4). What I like about it is you can try out heaps of different arrangements of magic items. Seems to work alright and having a big number of cheap weak to medium SC's means less vunerability to nasty spells. I'm enjoying this approach more than the limited SC angle of blood. Still a bit of tweaking to go but a race with a heap of SC's (even if they aren't flash) gives much of the pleasure of old SC races.

Are Jotun Herses the SC's of the future?

Cheers

Keir

[Windreaper]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Windreaper:
EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Agree on every point, except the Messenger boots. Flying is an awesome ability to get on Ice devils (more for strategical than tactical reasons). I was fond of starshine skullcaps and rainbow armors for my SCs in Doms 1.

---

I see your point there and to quote myself:
"Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)"

Still, getting nailed by a single quickened arch seraph casting orb lightning kind of sucks so I'd take survivability over strategic mobility in this case. It's a matter of taste however. Rainbow Armor/Flying Shoes might be better if you wish to take part in smaller combats with less mage power in play.

Jasper: Good point, you just don't want to unstealth your scouts. If they happen to get attacked and you lose a scout the whole army retreats, ugh. Never tried it this way so I'm not 100% sure of this, however. OTOH, you could always keep some mock troops with your ID to prevent this from happening.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
I see your point there and to quote myself:
"Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)"

Yes I've seen that line, but myself I'll stick to flying boots in most cases even with no rainbow armor. I couldn't pass on the fact that flying IDs can strike wherever I want within a 3-provinces radius, and limiting your opponent's ability to predict your next move so drastically is invaluable. In a sense this unpredictability improves the ID's survavibility, while maximizing his efficiency at the same time (on the contrary a non-flying IDs isn't assured to fight every turn, and may often miss opportunities to cause the most damage to your enemy).

Still, getting nailed by a single quickened arch seraph casting orb lightning kind of sucks so I'd take survivability over strategic mobility in this case.

I can't see how boots of the messenger would help better than flying boots in this scenario. When you fly you can always hit something, and regain hit points and fatigue from it. Although if I knew I had to fight Caelum, I'd just fly away to a lab, equip shock resistance gear, and be back to fight 2 turns later.

It's a matter of taste however. Rainbow Armor/Flying Shoes might be better if you wish to take part in smaller combats with less mage power in play.

Everyone is allowed his own opinion and I respect yours. I prefer to use IDs as raiders, and flying is essential to me. Now of course I could use the trampling winged armor with boots of the messenger.

The part I like about the flying boots is you can send out your ID out only partially equipped (without the Elemental Hauberk for example) with flying boots as you choose provinces that have less likely of a chance of getting attacked by anything except provencial defenses. Hurting your opponent faster or while you don't have as many gems as you need. Then when you get your new equipment forged you can just jump back to a lab like Nagot said and equip him. Also I have alot more success with killing retreating armies by boxing in provinces with IDs.

Even with Starshine Cap, Lead Shield, and AMA the poor guy will still get hit by spells, especially if the casters have any sort of penetration. That's why I think that Windreaper considers the cap *required* because it is basically a 'free slot' with MR on it.

[ January 09, 2004, 21:11: Message edited by: Zen ]