Glamour post 3.08

[Velusion]

mivayan said:
NTJedi - the "Van" unit is only capitol only in LA. MA Vanheim can build them anywhere.

Has anyone seen a difference when fighting ea vanheim/helheim non-sacreds? I'm thinking of flaming arrows and bladewind etc.

I'd be curious to know. I would think the 3.08 change really helps the mid-game against glamour units. What's funny is that both FA and BW also got nerfed in the last patch (which is good IMHO).

[Saxon]

Gandalf,

Most interesting to hear about the multiple long runs of the AI games. Given that no one else is reporting the issue, perhaps my sample size is too small or I am getting unusual results. In the game I was playing last night I was facing Arco in a mid to late game and their wide range of astral spells were adding up to make them much more challenging than the early game nation I know.

[Valandil]

I assume, with the massive number of test that have been run, that someone has tried an identical unit without glamour? Seems that that would quickly isolate the problem (that is, if we can agree on whether there IS a problem.)

[MaxWilson]

Sombre said:
3.08 was supposed to make a hail of arrows effective against glamour and thus offer more nations a less extreme (in terms of design points, strat, overall cost) counter to vans.

Clearly Jazzepi feels mislead - saying "well archers aren't the counter to heavy cavalry" just demonstrates that the van nerf might not have changed them much, since the big alteration was for missiles vs glamour.

You would expect the glamour nerf to roughly double the number of hits against Vans, but an E9 bless will reduce the number of hits by something like a factor of 2.5, as well as reducing the damage when an arrow does manage to hit. I'm still kind of surprised the archers did "nothing" to the Vans.

-Max

[llamabeast]

Max! Hello, haven't seen you around for a while. Been on holiday?

[NTJedi]

sum1won said:
Jedi, perhaps you don't understand. The problem with Vanheim is that playing next to them means death. It isn't that they aren't balanced in the long game, it is simply that in the short game they are unstoppable. Start next to them, and die. Simple as that. That doesn't make for a very fun game, unless you also like self-inflicted eye-wounds and volunteer for unneeded amputations.

As I wrote earlier...
Also considering the game has so so many different nations it's nice to have one or two stronger nations... especially for the SP gamers. I could understand the logic of balancing all the nations if there were only 7 or less to choose as we see from most games... but we have 62 nations to choose thus let there be some variety.
HOW many nations can DOMINIONS_3 have until Illwinter is finally allowed to create one super powerful nation? 100? 500? 5000?
If every single game you play has to have all opponent options balanced then it removes the option of playing a multiplayer or singleplayer game with a very strong opponent.
For those who cannot accept the sentences listed above then the answers are simple... either don't use Vanheim in your game since you have almost 60 others to choose OR use a MOD to balance Vanheim as you see fit.

[Sombre]

Or they could be balanced in vanilla and then /you/ could use a mod to make them unbalanced and overpowered, as you see fit. To my mind that would make more sense.

But I believe people have argued this point with you before and you just kept repeating the same stuff, so forget it :]

[thejeff]

Illwinter should make a really unbalanced nation. Armies of cheap recruitable SCs, cheap uber mages, etc.

A nation that even run by the AI, would require an alliance of players to stop it.
That would be a real challenge.

</snark>

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive asked for that from the experts for awhile. Those who feel they know exactly what the AI does and doesnt do well could create a mod for a bigger better AI. If they know how to beat it so easily then it seems they might be able to fix it.

Amos has done a few nations that are not balanced for players, but none that seem to be specifically playing up the AI strengths and removing things the AI overuses.

[Warhammer]

How do you test for balance? What is an effective test?

Does Vanheim win all the MA games it is in? I think the evidence shows that they do not. It also appears that Vanheim is balanced for the entire game, rather than just the beginning or just the end. They have poor researchers and must have a substantial position in the late game so that they can hold on to win. But, if they do not have that position, they will not win.

Let's look at other classic games. In Diplomacy, is Italy balanced? Is Russia or France balanced? No, that is actually part of the game. Everyone must negotiate to set up a situation where Russia or France won't win. Only then can the other nations embark on their own path to victory.

In Republic of Rome, the player that holds the Cornelius family at the beginning of the game has a large advantage. Many have house ruled it so that they do not have such a powerful position, but I find those games less interesting than those with a powerful Cornelius that is guaranteed Censor and a 15 influence at the end of the first turn.

In Empires in Arms, France is far and away the strongest power in the game. Again, only by first curtailing France can the other nations pursue victory.

What people are ultimately upset about is that in MP Dominions if you start next to Vanheim you are hosed. If that is the case, you need to rely on your diplomatic skills to save you.

The thing is, in every massive MP game like Dominions, someone has to be the first two or three players out of the game. It might suck, it might seem like the lottery, but if it wasn't Vanheim, it'd be someone else that people were grousing about. Heck, if all things were equal, the game would eventually stalemate if all players were of equal ability.