Ashdod is worthless now

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I find it highly doubtful that anyone has ever played Niefl Giants or Anikim with an F6W6 bless, so considering that as a viable alternative to stuff that is actually seen in game isn't really productive.

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

(2) Peter misses the point. My argument is not based on 'these are the blesses that are most commonly used' but 'these are the blesses which have the best performance for these chasses'.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim, and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians. So, once again, I redirect you to Peter's post: dont confuse what is a specific and minoritary subset of the metagame (that is, Multiplayer competitive games in Llamaserver against vets -or at the very least people who read the guides here-, in maps that have 10-15 provinces per player and 8 players per game). There are a LOT of different ways to play. That changes what is considered "optimal". For example: I used to play in games with no diplomacy, and 2 sides set from the begining. In a situation like that, your bless might need to have in consideration things like what other nations are in your side, and what magic paths your side might need.

It's you who misses Peter's point. Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses"). In a completelly different subset of metagame, other options might be better. That's actually the entire point in Peter's (excellent) post.

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well. You can't expect me to even begin to consider that a serious bless for Nieflheim, with any number of players. Its strictly worse than E4N4 for Nieflheim, much less E9N4. *Not taking any bless* would be better than that.

(The Fomoria doesn't sound so bad - more scales than bless, nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure i'd call that an unmarked bless though, he just happened to use some unmarked. Scales are a viable build for most nations, with or without some light rainbow blessing.)

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Is bless the only consideration when building your pretender? Of course not. But it *is* the only consideration when it comes to judging whether or not its worth hiring a given sacred. In the context of a sacred a bless is either good or bad or indifferent. One possible bless is the best.

If people choose to use suboptimal blesses for reasons other than blessing their troops, well, that's due to considerations beside what their sacreds are. That has nothing to do with balancing sacreds. All your reasons for taking suboptimal blesses have *nothing to do with the sacreds*. So if that particular bless makes the sacreds unplayably bad, the solution is obvious - don't play with them! Use other units.

Surely you wouldn't advocate Niefl Giants should be balanced around assuming a W9 bless for them? They're clearly really bad units that aren't worth anywhere close to 125g at that point. But if we slash the price to 50g or whatever they might be worth with a W9 bless, then someone comes along with E9N4 Niefl Giants and destroys people because they're clearly undercosted. When we're talking about balancing sacreds, we should be assuming optimal blesses on those sacreds.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

W9 Nieflheim who lost horribly I assume? I mean, that doesn't even begin to work well.

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by triqui

Devoured by triple bless (W9F9B6) Jaguars, as far as I remember :P. The player loved Father of Winter chasis, and went nut with it. However, it's a sign that not everybody plays "by the standards".

Yes, but if the result is 'inevitably lose horribly', then its really not something that should be taken seriously.

You're welcome to play W9 anakim and do just as well in the current CBM, if you like.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by triqui

I've played in MP against W9 Niefelheim,

I have to admit this build really confuses me. Even with a W9 bless Niefel giants aren't going to be dishing out many attacks but if you really wanted to double your attacks your mages can easily cast quickness on them (and of course all your Jarls can cast personal quickness). So all you get out of this is +4 defense - but as giants they are going to be completely outnumbered so that defense bonus isn't going to help them like it would a smaller unit. The only advantage I can see is if they're facing other giants but even there I'd prefer to take the earth bless as it will prevent them from getting fatigued while your cold aura and possibly your own chaff tire out your opponents (assuming they don't have their own E bless). I honestly can't think of a situation where a W9 bless would be better for Niefel than an E9 bless (even aside from the fact that strong E is a much better addition to your magic diversity than strong W).

Originally Posted by triqui

and against (or, actually, along side) F4W4N4E4 Unmarked fomorians.

This I can see working. The nice thing about rainbow blesses is that you can usually get them just by spending a little more here and there when designing your pretender. TNN's Tuatha warriors work nicely with them as do MA Jotun's woodsmen (F4E4N4 works well though even just N4E4 will get the job done).

Originally Posted by triqui

Those aren't the best blesses for those chasses, but the best blesses for those chasses in a metagame that involve Multiplayer Competitive fights in 10-15 provinces per player in matchs of 8 players that happen in Llamaserver among people who ussually fight using the conventional approach (ie: the "optimal build for chasses").

Well, CBM is going to have to choose something to balance against. What do you think it should be? Personally my guess is that most Dominions players play SP but there balance isn't an issue and it can actually be more interesting to have things imbalanced.

I'm not much of a minmaxer myself and there's nothing wrong with taking a build for the fun of it, but I wouldn't expect CBM to balance itself against my non-optimal builds - otherwise a true minmaxer will be able to abuse the heck out of things.

As far as different game types go, I've played several duels and obviously there you have a different focus as all you need is to defeat one opponent. IMO the main difference large and medium size games (aside from hellish micromanagement ) is that having your best units be cap only is more of a drawback and good scales matter more than ever.

[triqui]

Originally Posted by Valerius

Well, CBM is going to have to choose something to balance against. What do you think it should be? Personally my guess is that most Dominions players play SP but there balance isn't an issue and it can actually be more interesting to have things imbalanced.

I think it's fine balancing out against MP with 8 players per match in medium sized maps. It's a fair middleground.

However, I disagree with some of the CBM balancing decisions.

[kianduatha]

Could you give some examples please? (Other than Ahiman Anakites, that is)

[Scaramuccia]

I don't see how size of the game change availability of blesses. You wouldn't play F9W9 Ashdod in any game. Power of different blesses in different metagames will be different. But game size wouldn't promote "unplayable" bless to "playable" it could only change the best one from "playable".

There are two exceptions - additional mods(ofc) and games with small number of opponents(size doesn't matter it could be duel on 100 province map).

[triqui]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Could you give some examples please? (Other than Ahiman Anakites, that is)

Sanguine Douses being unique artifacts, for example.

I don't see how size of the game change availability of blesses. You wouldn't play F9W9 Ashdod in any game. Power of different blesses in different metagames will be different. But game size wouldn't promote "unplayable" bless to "playable" it could only change the best one from "playable"

W9F9B8 would be absolutelly atrocious bless for any nation in a game with 25 provinces per nation and 20 nations, becouse the cost in scales would make it incredibly hurtful in the long run, plus you probably won't be able to take enough adventage from your sacreds to make it worthy.
In a 1vs1 match in a 20 provinces map, that bless alone might give you the victory before a proper counter is developed.

Otoh, a bless like S9 gets extra power once Wish is developed (it gives you a wisher, your pretender), and having +3 MR in your thugs and commanders is much more relevant in turn 60 than it is in turn 20.

So yes, I think the size of the map is very important to decide bless viability, becouse size of the game / map directly influence the length of the game, and the things that are useful in turn 15 aren't the same that are useful in turn 90. Blitz matches tend to gravitic toward fast and furious blesses, making some options unviable in that specific kind of match. That does not mean the option is not viable in some other kinds of matches.

[Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Some chasses have clearly optimal blesses. If you're going to use Niefl Giants, the optimal bless is obviously E9N4. Now, you may go with less than that because of cost, but that doesn't make it not the optimal bless for that chassis. And to pretend that chasses don't have optimal blesses with which they perform the best on the field is ridiculous.

Actually Squirrel, I have done some test and I found out that if you are taking a bless only for the Niefel giants, you are much better of with a Son of Fenrir with W4N6 and dom9.

Why? I compared him to the Master druid with a E9N4 bless and the wolf got *4* more scales and *3* points of extra dominion. The giants wont be quite as strong with this bless but you'll have much more of them and you are much more likely to fight your battles in cold dominion.

Actually strong dominion is a must with Niefelheim in general because every province without cold 3 gets income penalties. And its good for the popsicle giants in particular because of the Coldpower and Cold protection that they got.

Now the drawback is that you cant put Fire and Earth on him for diversity. Thats bad because those paths are a pain to bootstrap into unless you get lucky with indies or use Aschaic records.

This bless is also worse for your thugs (but we took it strictly for the troops). You have to put messenger boots on your skrattis if you want to thug with them. So thats 5 gems extra for every thug.