Stealth and Scattering Armor bonus

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

1) Take the shield points currently generated.
2) Estimate the typical hit rate that your enemy has against your ship.
3) Multiply your answers from (1) and (2), then divide by 100.
4) If the answer you get is:
less than 1200 : Do not bother with Stealth or Scattering armor.
from 1200 to 1670 : Add a Stealth armor only.
1670 or higher : Add both Stealth and Scattering armor.

I thought you were dividing by the hit rate in (2). Is this the correct formula you propose, where:
s = shield points
h = percent of being hit (decimal)

x = (s)(1/h)(1/100)

Maybe if you go through an example for me, I will be enlightened. Say 500 shield points, 60% chance of being hit, after armor bonuses added (lvl 6, both armors).

Thanks!
-Spoon

[ March 20, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: spoon ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by tbontob:
As I interpret it so far:

1250 represents the amount of firepower (which has a 40% chance of hitting) that is necessary to destroy shields which have a total of 500 shield points.

I hear you when you say the 187.5 value is the break-even point for stealth armor/no stealth armor.

And I understand the mathematics on how you got the 187.5 value, but intuitively, I do not see how it relates to being a break-even point.

Is there a way of explaining this connection?

If there isn't, I'll just take it as provisionally true and continue.

The 187.5 value is in units of Size x Hitpoints per ECM%, apparently.
I don't believe its worth thinking about, and it hurts my brain to try to understand what it really means.

IMO, it is much better to just use the 1200, which is easy to understand as:
- the amount of effective-hitpoints needed to break even on Stealth armor vs more shields.

IE: the point where subtracting 180 HP and adding 15% ECM gives you no change in effective-hitpoints.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by tbontob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Hitpoints / chance to be hit = average firepower thrown at your ship. (Toughness)
Overkill, cripplings, and internals being ignored.

Lets see there.
As a random example:
500 shield points, and typically 40% to hit.
That gives 500/.4 = 1250
1250*.15 = 187.5, pretty close to that 165 number.

Hi SJ

I'll take this step by step and try not to do it all at once. (please correct me if I am in error).

(snipping text to save bandwidth )
I hear you when you say the 187.5 value is the break-even point for stealth armor/no stealth armor.
(snipping more text to save more bandwidth )

---

I don't think SJ was claiming the 187.5 value was the break-even point, that was just a specific value for the effect of an extra 15% combat defense bonus, and he was comparing that to the break-even point he'd originally referenced. That effect needs to be compared to the size and structure of the component providing that bonus (i.e., stealth armor or scattering armor) and also compared to the size, structure, etc. of the components removed from the design to make room for the stealth/scattering armor.

In other words, this is a fairly straightforward cost/benefit analysis:

Cost of armor: 30 kT space (or 50 kT space)
Benefit of armor: 100 kT structure/HP (or 150 kT structure/HP) PLUS 5/10/15% combat defense bonus (depending on level of armor researched).

The next step is figuring out what benefits are lost when you add armor instead of (for instance) a shield generator (or a shield REgenerator, or a weapon, or a supply storage component, or a solar sail, or whatever). SJ's example assumes that you'd replace shield generator(s) with the stealth/scattering armor.

[tbontob]

Geo.

Fyron and I were both participants in the nested quotes. I just happened to be the Last one.

If you look carefully, it was not so much the nested quotes themselves but the fact I screwed up the nested quotes which SJ tried to correct but didn't eliminate the duplications.

You'll have to take a look at the quote to see what I mean.

And yes, I do try not to include the entire text and at times I include the entire text at time when it may be better not to.

But I am human and I make human mistakes.

I just don't like having someone ragging my *** if I should happen to overstep the line somewhat when the real issue is something else.

[geoschmo]

Tbontob, as I said I wasn't taking sides. Please don't take this as an admonishment. I understood the reasons for your Posts. Yes we are all human, but I wasn't even suggesting you made a mistake. I was assuming you did it intentionally to goad Fyron a bit.

I know he can be annoying at times. "Ragging" is something he seems to particularly enjoy. My prefered method of pointing it out to him is to speak to others about him in a slightly disapointed, patronizing way. The way you would speak about a particularly rambunctious child to other adults. Discussing it with him standing right there, but not directly acknoledging him as if he isn't. He hates that.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

The next step is figuring out what benefits are lost when you add armor instead of (for instance) a shield generator (or a shield REgenerator, or a weapon, or a supply storage component, or a solar sail, or whatever). SJ's example assumes that you'd replace shield generator(s) with the stealth/scattering armor.

I think that's a fair assumption, since what the algorithm does is to optimize the defensive strength of ship using only the space already allocated to shields.

I don't think SJ was claiming the 187.5 value was the break-even point, that was just a specific value for the effect of an extra 15% combat defense bonus, and he was comparing that to the break-even point he'd originally referenced. That effect needs to be compared to the size and structure of the component providing that bonus (i.e., stealth armor or scattering armor) and also compared to the size, structure, etc. of the components removed from the design to make room for the stealth/scattering armor.

Actually I was. That number takes into account the change in hitpoints, and the ECM bonus of 15%.

[ March 20, 2003, 17:51: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

1) Take the shield points currently generated.
2) Estimate the typical hit rate that your enemy has against your ship.
3) Multiply your answers from (1) and (2), then divide by 100.
4) If the answer you get is:
less than 1200 : Do not bother with Stealth or Scattering armor.
from 1200 to 1670 : Add a Stealth armor only.
1670 or higher : Add both Stealth and Scattering armor.

I thought you were dividing by the hit rate in (2). Is this the correct formula you propose, where:
s = shield points
h = percent of being hit (decimal)

x = (s)(1/h)(1/100)

Maybe if you go through an example for me, I will be enlightened. Say 500 shield points, 60% chance of being hit, after armor bonuses added (lvl 6, both armors).

Thanks!
-Spoon

---

Aw, man. Can you believe I'm in a math program at university?

1) Take the shield points currently generated.
2) Estimate the typical hit rate that your enemy has against your ship.
3) Divide your answer from (1) by your answer from (2), then multiply by 100.
4) If the answer you get is:
less than 1200 : Do not bother with Stealth or Scattering armor.
from 1200 to 1670 : Add a Stealth armor only.
1670 or higher : Add both Stealth and Scattering armor.

[ March 20, 2003, 17:48: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[tbontob]

Geo

I did take what you said as "constructive criticism". In a very real and very positive sense.

If I cannot take an honest opinion and reflect on it, then I am not being honest with myself. Worse, I could be living a lie.

I wasn't so much as goading as I was determined not to let Fyron off the hook this time. Fyron uses a number of tactics to prove to himself he is right and to give the impresssion to others he is always right.

One of his Favorites is the subject change. When he feels he is losing the arguement, he will change the subject or throw it in a new direction where he can come out on top.

Unfortunately, most participants in the conversation don't realize he is doing this. They are always put in a position of "losing" and there is often bewilderment and anger over it.

I cannot recall the number of times he has used this tactic on me. I recognize it and usually stop participating. Since he has the Last word, he believes he has won the issue, which couldn't be further from the truth. I just refuse to go along with the subject change. This time I didn't.

Fyron has yet to learn there is no shame in being wrong and openly admitting it. Then real growth can take place.

I do consider Fyron a friend. I am just getting tired of the tactics being used on me. So this time I took it to the limit...to the amusement of everyone around us.

And yes, there was an element of goading. The fact I did it in the manner that I did is an indication of how annoyed I was becoming with the tactics being used.

[Ward]

To that formula:

This is a formula that counts with: Space reqired by component's, damage dealt, different % to hit and of course overall defense points. It works also with many extreme examples.

Abbreviations used in examples and formula:

su = Space used. Total of space the components take up on ship.
sr = Space required for components. Count in kt. Add ALL components.
dd = Damage dealt. Pick any number bigger than 1.
mp = Modified percent. Attacker's percent to hit(again, choose any number) minus your defense adjustment(count OLNY bonus from component).
dv = Defense value. Add damage resistance(in kt) and additional points(shield or armor).

How it works?

1: (dd*mp1/100) - (dv1*sr2/sr1)
Count.

2: (dd*mp2/100) - dv2
Count.

Compare. Smaller wins.

Example1:

Let's say you have 50 kt of free space on ship. Enemy can deal you 1000 points of damage and he hits 60% of time. First ship has an armor and second a shield generator.

Armor requires 50 kt's adds 150 armor points and 15% to defend.
Shield generator reqires 40 kt and adds 375 shield points.

sr1 = 50
sr2 = 40
dd = 1000
mp1 = 45
mp2 = 60
dv1 = 200
dv2 = 415

1: 1000*45/100 - 200*40/50 = 290
2: 1000*60/100 - 415 = 185

Shield wins.

Example2:

Let's say you have 210 kt of free space on ship. Enemy can deal you 1000 points of damage and he hits 60% of time. First ship has 4 shield generators and 1 armor and second has 5 shield generators.

Armor requires 50 kt's adds 150 armor points and 15% to defend.
Shield generator reqires 40 kt and adds 375 shield points.

sr1 = 210
sr2 = 200
dd = 1000
mp1 = 45
mp2 = 60
dv1 = 1850
dv2 = 2075

1: 1000*45/100 - 1850*200/210 = -1312
2: 1000*60/100 - 2075 -1475
Shield wins(but slightly).

This is not a failure. Here really the shield wins. After all, if the armor gives you 15% to defense it is as if it gave you one sixth more defense. That also means that on average only after 6 shields it pays off to have an armor.
Try to slightly increase the % of shield. You'll see the results you probably want to see.

Of course this formula does NOT include all possibilities but it covers most common situations.

[Ward]

I almost forgot: The break even point is easy find. Just give those two sides into eqation. That't the exact break-even point.