MBT's

[jivemi]

OK, after 3 meeting engagements in mostly level, lightly wooded terrain (random each time) on a 110X120 map with 41 visibility here are the results:

Test one: Russian first player, 13 T-72B3/B4s vs 12 Oplot-Ms (sorry that's even but Oplots are more expensive): each side lost 9 tanks. Draw.

Test two: Ukrainians first player, 13 Oplots vs 13 T-72s, 3 Oplots lost to all 13 T-72s, Ukrainian marginal win.

Test three: Russia first, 13 T-72s to 13 Oplots, honors even again as both sides lost 11 tanks.

Russian crews have perhaps a 10-point experience advantage although they still seemed to miss fairly often. Envars had a couple kills while the Kombats had none. Last battle an Oplot platoon was on higher elevation but hull down didn't help, maybe 'cuz only 2 tanks had LOS through a tree line at any one time to the Russians' 3 or 4.

Dunno if this proves anything but it was fun to watch the AI slug it out with heavy armor. Cheers!

[zovs66]

So I had some time and ran a quick test with these parameters:



And the ending result (I as the Russians) vs AI Marginal Victory:



As you can see I lost 5 tanks to 12. It was pretty tough but over by turns 5-7.

[zovs66]

Oh for the Ukrainians I purchased a tank company:
T-84 Oplot-M (x13)

and for the Russians a tank company:
T-72/3M/B4 (x13)

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

jivemi,
First Thank you for your time as well!!

Well that was interesting! And I have to add, unexpected. So I draw the following conclusions from this test...

1) It still would seem to support the refs submitted that the ERA for the OPLOT-M must be revised which, I believe Don does as well to at least parody to the Russian T-90A as noted in my last evaluation.

2) The overall results though, 2 Draws & 1 Marginal Victory tank on tank does really surprise me.

3) The above "2)" needed to stand alone. The AI as be set to "Tank Heavy" will generally have more tanks overall and sometimes even at the start. Not to give away too much in case I ever play a PEMB, I always start from a "combined arms" minus air support in the beginning.

To get to 1:1 or 2:1 kill ratios using these tanks I don't think I ever achieved that with these tanks fighting against each other, certainly not early in my long campaigns. I have had early battle draws rarely, won many marginal victories and an occasional decisive victory's.

I think how I'm getting these is though my tanks are getting beaten up or worse, they must be doing just enough damage to where my APC's and Infantry have just enough in them to start taking them out later in the battles, not all of them mind you, but for long enough and with loss of other units, that the "Battle Clock" runs out of time on the Russians.

This says a lot for the "Combined Arms" way of thinking and planning. But it also speaks to the fact, that as I posted, I need to "husband" these tanks a little more and change my tactics as I already noted. They need to "live to see another day" in my way of playing.

As a note I have found playing these two countries in the present day very challenging based on what the UKRAINE has to work with. You might also find the same, if not, then I'm really "hosed up"!?!

So this was useful.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

ASL,
Thank you also! I think my last evaluation posts are still relevant, however...

1) WELCOME TO MY WORLD!! That's more along the lines I'm seeing things. That's almost a 2.5:1 kill ratio in favor of the Russians. That sounds about right to me.

2) Maybe I'm not that "hosed up" after all!?! Time will tell.

Now I have to get ready for work it's gonna be cold out there tonight!!

Regards,
Pat

[zovs66]

No worries, you can call me ASL, but it's really zovs66 or Don

ASL = Advanced Squad Leader

[RC4]

M41C delivered to Uruguay in 7 Dec 2018.
Article with vídeo
http://www.defesanet.com.br/leo/noti...cito-Uruguaio/
Thanks

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Don,
Thank You for correcting me! ASL Advanced Squad Leader, well imagine that!?!

This would be a good time to be "Going Deep, Deep, Deep."

Got off early/going to bed earlier!!

RC4,
Thanks for the follow-up! I believe the 01/2019 Start Date will hold up well as submitted, based on your information! I like it when people follow up on something!!

Regards,
Pat

[Aeraaa]

OK, the first of several tests:

Test#1. Human controlled Russian tank company of T72BM3/4s vs. AI controlled Ukrainian tank company of T-84 Oplot-Ms. Both companies have 13 tanks in total. Terrain is normally random generated terrain 80*60 hexes in size. Meeting engagement. 5 engagements total.

Results:

Russian casualties Ukrainian casualties result
3 9 MV
1 7 DV
3 9 MV
1 8 MV
2 9 MV

Average:
2 8.4

Comments: The tanks are quite evenly matched. Below 800 meters, destruction is highly likely even with frontal hits. Skill is the most important factor, since I can use terrain to conduct ambushes and AI just moves forward.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Aeraaa,
If I'm reading your last post correctly, those numbers are indicating a greater than 4:1 Kill Ratio in favor of the Russians. Do you remember or keep track of the ATGW's used by each side and result, i.e. kill or other? I'm looking at the results as the Russians being the "former" and the Ukrainians being the "latter" on your "chart".

This result to some degree almost puts me back to square one, in regards to conventional ammo issue or now maybe even steel armor.

We already know the ERA is lower then it should be for the OPLOT-M which should at a minimum be as good as the T-90A if not slightly better. I did not however, compare the steel armor between the two tanks.

I did however indicate I was seeing loses at 3:1 or higher in my first post leading to these tests.


Don't get me wrong, the T-72B3/B4 is a darn good tank and plays as expected, however, at least on paper, it's specs are not as good as the T-90A in the game or "RW". And this is the tank most refs compare the OPLOT-M to on a regular basis in it's at parody or "slightly" better than the T-90A.

It has to be one of the two above as mentioned or I'm missing something else. I don't know it this point.

I'm open to anyone else's thoughts after this test, even if it looks like I'm chasing a "red herring" in a manner of speaking.

Otherwise, I'm sticking with my original evaluations as posted. I'll have to look into this closer when I can - as I need to be in the shower now.

Thank You for your time in running the test and again the same to everyone else that ran one.


Regards,
Pat