Mod Idea: Simulating surfaces -> Borg Technology -> Twinkie Physics -> Worldviews

[dogscoff]

I'm not a scientist in any shape or form, but I have an amateur's interest I'd like to answer some (not all) of your questions. The fact that I can't answer them all doesn't mean I'm wrong - science acknowledges that we still have things to learn.

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
2. Where did matter come from?
3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

I don't know much about Big bang theory, so I'm not going to attempt to answer these, but can you answer this: Where did God come from?

4. How did matter get so perfectly organized?

Perfectly organised? Perfect for what? Something cannot be perfect unless it has a purpose to be perfect for. I believe there is no purpose and that space is just chaotic. Matter clumps together into star systems, galaxies etc as a result of physical laws.

6. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?

I believe labs have proven that amino acids and other complex organic molecules can be formed by non-biological processes (ie primordial soup).

7. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?

8. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?

I'm not sure that a single cell can reproduce sexually, I think that's the domain of us clever multi-cell beasts. Nitpick aside, I imagine the first whatever with that ability did the deed with another part of itself- even modern plants that are capable of sexual reproduction can self-pollinate.

9. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kindsince this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)

You're right, a creature looking after number one probably would live longer than one that makes the effort to reproduce, but its ancestors aren't going to be the ones running the Earth in 600 million years, are they? Remember, celibacy is not heridtary.

10. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)

I don't how your metaphor is relevant. The possibilities for variety within genetic code are staggering- remember, our DNA is something like 50% the same as that of a banana. Your parents combined their genetic code to create a new, potentially improved variety of themselves.

11. Is it possible that similarities in design between different animals prove a common Creator instead of a common ancestor?

Not necessarily. Parallel evolution.

12. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The theory of evolution is designed to explain just that.

I'm skipping a bunch of questions I don't know enough about. I'm curious as to why you're picking specifically on whales and sea horses. What did they ever do to you?

4. Eyes evolve?

Ah, now this one I can answer, I saw it on TV: Something about sluggy creatures with simple, light sensitive cells which allowed them to tell if it was light or dark. Gradually, these cells moved (over many generations) into recesses in the creatures form, so that by moving around it could tell where the light was coming from. The recesses became concave pits (for even better directional vision), kind of like a an empty eye-socket with a retina at the back, and eventually all the fancier features of the eye evolved after that.

5. Ears evolve?
6. Hair, skin, feathers, scales, nails, claws, etc., evolve?

The same way anything else evolves. A creature is born, by chance, with something a bit like hair on it. His brother isn't. It isn't an important difference, neither an advantage nor disadvantage in competetion for food etc, so off they both go, reproducing merrily. Dozens of generations later, some of the species has hairyish bits and some of the population doesn't. No one notices and it still doesn't seem important until the environment begins to change- it's getting colder. The population splits with the bald half finding somewhere warmer or dying off, the hairy half thriving in the cold weather. Give it a couple of million years of progression in two seperate directions and- hey presto- two seperate species.

1. The digestive system, the food to be digested, the appetite, the ability to find and eat the
...snip...system?
9. The immune system or the need for it?

Wouldn't it have been easier just to ask "how does stuff evolve?", rather than asking "how does a, b, c, d, e... evolve?" See my previous paragraph for my own, layman's understanding of evolution.

10. There are many thousands of examples of symbiosis that defy an evolutionary explanation.

Why does symbiosis defy evolution?

Why must we teach students that evolution is the only explanation for these relationships?

Because it is an explanation and because it can be proved. If evolution was as unproveable as you say, I'm sure someone (ie, someone without a bible to defend) would have noticed by now.

How would evolution explain mimicry? Did the plants and animals develop mimicry by chance, by their intelligent choice, or by design?

it doesn't matter why they started mimicking other animals. All that matters is that the ones who did mimic thrived and the ones who didn't, didn't.

When, where, why, and how did

1. Man evolve feelings?

Well, it was in a tree in what is now western Ethopia on a Tuesday afternoon... how am I supposed to knwo where and when?

Love, mercy, guilt, etc. would never evolve in the theory of evolution.

I disagree completely. You ever see an elephant or a gorilla that has lost it's offspring or mate? It seems to me that that social, animal bond could easily develop into complex human empathic responses (mercy, guilt) as we becasme civilised.

5. What kind of evolutionist are you? Why are you not one of the other eight or ten kinds?

uh..?

What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?

I would have said "that's impossible, they're extinct." If you told me today that you have one I'd say "That must be a very high pressure aquarium." Then I'd say "Did you know that 50 years ago these were thought to be extinct?" What's your point?

8. What is so scientific about the idea of hydrogen as becoming human?

I don't understand this question. Are you talking about hydrogen being the only element being produced by the big bang and all other elements being produced from hydrogen in stars? I don't have a problem with that theory.

9. Do you honestly believe that everything came from nothing?

Well, so do you. I ask again, where did God come from? What raw materials did it use to fashion the universe? What was there first?

1. Are you sure your answers are reasonable, right, and scientifically provable, or do you just believe that it may have happened the way you have answered? (I.e., do these answers reflect your religion or your science?)
2. Do your answers show more or less faith than the person who says, "God must have designed it"?

In my case they are based on largely on faith, because I'm not a scientist and I don't habve the know-how or resources to run around verifying everyone else's results. As far as I have actually experienced with my own senses the international scientific community could be one crazy guy in an office producing wierd-sounding theories at random and feeding them to the likes of me.
Equally, as far as I'm concerned there might be no such place as America, because I have never been there. However, I choose to believe that there is a place called America because, well, for the same reason you (presumably) accept that there is such a place as (insert name of place you've never been).
And so yes, my answers are based on faith, but it is faith that what I have said is based on scientific, provable facts.

3. Is it possible that an unseen Creator designed this universe?

Not in 7 days, no. As much as anything else, I can't see that a God would bother doing it that way. Seems to me a far more elegant solution would be to kick off something like the Big bang and let it all unfold...

If God is excluded at the beginning of the discussion by your definition of science, how could it be shown that He did create the universe if He did?

Well, quite frankly, that's your problem and not mine. If you could show me an undeniably genuine sticker on the underside of the universe with "God was here" written on it, then I would accept your viewpoint and be happy that a) eternal life is a reality after all and that b) God has a sense of humour. Until that happens, I just have to plod along with what can be proven. I have to say I would *like* to believe - it must be very comforting to believe in all that, but belief isn't something I can just switch on and off.

4. Is it wise and fair to present the theory of evolution to students as fact?

Well it all comes down to your definition of fact, doesn't it? Let me put it this way: You say evolution can't be proved, and so it can't be taught as fact. I say it can be proved, but even if I'm wrong, that doesn't make you right. Your theory is certyainly not more provable than evolution, so maybe we should be teaching all these little kids about Buddhism.

5. What is the end result of a belief in evolution (lifestyle, society, attitude about others, eternal destiny, etc.)?

Who cares? Just 'cause I don't like the truth, doesn't make it any less true. Like I say, it would be very nice to believe in a benevolent God and eternal life and all that jazz, but I'm not going to pick and choose my beliefs about truth according to which one is nicest.

6. Do people accept evolution because of the following factors?
-It is all they have been taught.
-They like the freedom from God (no moral absolutes, etc.).
-They are bound to support the theory for fear of losing their job or status or grade point average.
-They are too proud to admit they are wrong.
-Evolution is the only philosophy that can be used to justify their political agenda.

I'm sure there are some, but a lot of the above sounds too much like a conspiracy theory for my taste.

-It is all they have been taught.

How widespread would religion be today if not for this one?

7. Should we continue to use outdated, disproved, questionable, or inconclusive evidences to support the theory of evolution

No, we should use all the indated, proven, unquestionable and conclusive ones instead, and we do.

because we don’t have a suitable substitute (Piltdown man, recapitulation, archaeopteryx, Lucy, Java man, Neanderthal man, horse evolution, vestigial organs, etc.)?

What is this list about. AAre these items supposed to disprove evolution? I don't think they do.

8. Should parents be allowed to require that evolution not be taught as fact in their school system unless equal time is given to other theories of origins (like divine creation)?

No. That kind of thing is for the family to teach. I don't think religion has any place in a school, except as something to be studied impartially.

9. What are you risking if you are wrong? "Either there is a God or there is not. Both possibilities are frightening."

Again, you are talking as though I can just start believing in God if you make it appealing enough. It doesn't matter how "frightening" or "risky" the truth is, it's still the truth and I can't change that. What's the point in beleiving anything else?

10. Why are many evolutionists afraid of the idea of creationism being presented in public schools?

Because a school is not a recruitment centre for your religion or any other. It should be neutral, to reflect the diverse beliefs of the children attending. Even as a kid I was an atheist but I was made to sing hymns and pray at school. Now that I am an adult, I realise how offensive that was. When i have kids I'm going to create merry hell at their school if they try anything like that. How would you feel if your kids came home from school quoting the Qu'ran and saying that Allah was the only true God? Wouldn't you be a bit pissed off?

11. If we are not supposed to teach religion in schools, then why not get evolution out of the textbooks? It is just a religious worldview.

That where we will have to agrre to differ. I don't think either side is likely to budge on this point.

[ December 11, 2002, 17:36: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[Wardad]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
2. Where did matter come from?
3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IT IS A SIMULATION.
We are in a giant Optical Computer and it is all done with mirrors.
God is testing us, and he won't even show us the questions.

Mwahahahahahahahahaahahahaha!!!!!!

[Krsqk]

I don't know much about Big bang theory, so I'm not going to attempt to answer these, but can you answer this: Where did God come from?

God, by definition, is uncreated. I'm not saying that's scientific (i.e., proveable).

I believe labs have proven that amino acids and other complex organic molecules can be formed by non-biological processes (ie primordial soup).

First, it takes carefully controlled production to create only left-handed amino acids (the kind in living organisms). Equal distributions of left- and right-handed amino acids form in unconstrained production. Second, amino acids and organic molecules don't equal life, and it hasn't been shown that they will combine to form life once that's produced. Third, there's a vast difference between the conditions in a lab and in a storm-tossed primordial soup.

Perfectly organised? Perfect for what? Something cannot be perfect unless it has a purpose to be perfect for. I believe there is no purpose and that space is just chaotic. Matter clumps together into star systems, galaxies etc as a result of physical laws.

You're telling me there's no organization in nature? Wouldn't random processes result in random results? Wouldn't an explosion like the Big Bang result in an equal distribution of matter across the universe?

You're right, a creature looking after number one probably would live longer than one that makes the effort to reproduce, but its ancestors aren't going to be the ones running the Earth in 600 million years, are they? Remember, celibacy is not heridtary.

No, the point of the question is whether survival is an individual or a species-wide instinct. Do organisms try to save themselves or save their kind?

I don't how your metaphor is relevant. The possibilities for variety within genetic code are staggering- remember, our DNA is something like 50% the same as that of a banana. Your parents combined their genetic code to create a new (potentially) improved variety of themselves.

And our blood chemistry is closest to that of a butter bean. So which one is a closer relative? Which people alive are most closely related to either bananas or beans? If all organisms have similar DNA, they might be related, or they just might have been created using an efficient design.

Not necessarily. Parallel evolution.

Not necessarily? The question was could similar design mean common creator.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. The theory of evolution is designed to explain just that.

Natural selection keeps a species around the average or norm. How 1) did so much genetic variation survive? and 2) did we evolve extra chromosomes and genes?

I'm skipping a bunch of questions I don;t knwo enough about. I'm curious as to why you're picking specifically on whales and sea horses. What did they ever do to you?

I was bitten by a sea horse when I was 3. Those animals are examples of organisms which seem contrary to their environment. What sort of conditions would make them evolve like that (i.e., air-breathing but water-dwelling)?

Wouldn't it have been easier just to ask "how does stuff evolve?", rather than asking "how does a, b, c, d, e... evolve?" See my previous paragraph for my own, layman's understanding of evolution.

Because the things in each list require each other to function--they comprise an entire system. How did vital organs develop? If you need it and don't have it, you're dead--by definition. How did creatures get along with their digestive systems before they developed a resistance to digestive juices? Or if the resistance developed first, what was the trigger for that development?

For example, take the bombardier beetle. He combines two chemicals which instantly create a steaming jet he directs at his attackers. He has a third chemical to keep them from reacting inside his body, and a fourth chemical to counteract the third and allow the reaction. Which of the four chemicals (or the outlet, for that matter) evolved first? How did he survive before the entire system was developed?

Why does symbiosis defy evolution?

They have to develop simultaneously, and even then, what would happen while they're developing? Why wouldn't the original creature develop something to fix its need instead of a secondary creature developing something to meet it?

Because it is an explanation and because it can be proved. If evolution was as unproveable as you say, I'm sure someone would have noticed by now.

They do notice it. They say things like, "We believe," "We think," "Maybe," "Our best guess is," etc. But they still teach that it's unquestionably proven.

By none of those, but by EVOLUTION, which is neither chance or design (although randomness does play a part).

Randomness and chance are flip sides of a coin. You can't separate them at will. Now you're sounding like EVOLUTION is some mysterious Force or Will or Prime Mover which directs events. Another God, maybe?

I disagree completely. You ever see an elephant or a gorilla that has lost it's offspring or mate? It seems to me that that social, animal bond could easily develop into complex human empathic responses (mercy, guilt) as we becasme civilised.

Compassion and mercy are weaknesses when the goal is survival. Why do ruthless dictators gain more power than men with scruples? Because they stop at nothing to advance over the competition. Evolution reduces life to a struggle to survive, where softness has no place with the winners.

I would have said "that's impossible, they're extinct." If you told me the same thing today that you have one I'd say "That must be a very high pressure aquarium." Then I'd say "Did you know that 50 years ago these were thought to be extinct?" What's your point?

No, 50 years ago, they were "known" to be extinct, according to any scientist you would have asked.

I don't understand this question. Are you talking about hydrogen being the only element being produced by the big bang and all other elements being the result of stellar processes? I don;t have a problem with that theory.

Any proof? Any evidence of elements naturally changing to new elements? Or is it just another unproven theory?

I ask again, where did God come from? What raw materials did it use to fashion the universe? What was there first?

Again, my worldview states a supernatural origin. Any God worth his salt would be able to create something from nothing--that's part of being God.

And so yes, my answers are based on faith, but it is faith that what I have said is based on scientific, provable facts.

And my faith is based on an omnipotent God Who recorded what He did.

Not in 7 days, no. As much as anything else, I can't see that a God would bother doing it that way. Seems to me a far more elegant solution would be to kick off something like the Big bang and let it all unfold...

And now man is the expert on how God would think? Why would He do it that way if someone might come along and say it all happened by natural processes?

Well, quite frankly, that's your problem and not mine. If you could show me an undeniably genuine sticker on the underside of the universe with "God was here" written on it, then I would accept your viewpoint and be happy that a) eternal life is a reality after all and that b) God has a sense of humour. Until that happens, I just have to plod along with what can be proven. I have to say I would *like* to believe - it must be very comforting to believe in all that, but belief isn't something I can just switch on and off.

No, belief isn't a switch, but it is a choice. Either you choose to believe in God, or you choose to believe in evolution.

Well it all comes down to your definition of fact, doesn't it?

No, there's only one definition of fact...

Let me put it this way: You say evolution can't be proved, and so it can't be taught as fact. I say it can be proved, but even if I'm wrong, that doesn't make you right. Your theory is certyainly not more provable than evolution, so maybe we should be teaching all these little kids about Buddhism.

...Which is no more provable than either of these.

How widespread would religion be today if not for this one?

Religions spread by conVersion, not just teaching. Why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the US?

What is this list about. AAre these items supposed to disprove evolution? I don't think they do

No, they're former proofs for evolution, all disproven or frauds, which still are taught in many textbooks.

How would you feel if your kids came home from school quoting the Qu'ran and saying that Allah was the only true God?

I'm not advocating teaching creation as fact, either. Let the kids see the evidence for both and then decide for themselves. That's the politically correct thing to do, isn't it?

[Krsqk]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
This is as good a time as any for the moderator to suggest a subject change. It's been an interesting and thought provoking discussion. You have all comported yourselves with a dignity and curtesy that is rare for public debates of this issue. Maybe it's a good time to put a period on the sentance.

Geo

Was composing my post while you posted this. Guess we should take this to PM or email if it continues. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

How are the Twinkies? Whether 1 year or 10 years old, they're still great!

[ December 11, 2002, 18:21: Message edited by: Krsqk ]

[Suicide Junkie]

How about this quote: "Structure, metamorphism, sedimentary reworking, and other complications have to be considered. Radiometric dating would not have been feasible if the geologic column had not been erected first." (O’Rourke, J. E., "Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy," American Journal of Science, vol. 276 (January 1976), p. 54) What does that mean, then? That radiometric dating doesn't really matter; it's the strata that determine the age? Or if strata age and radiometric age conflict (which should never happen, if the geologic column were correct), the rock age wins?

I read that to mean that the geological information was used to help calibrate the radiometric scale...
Just like using tree rings...
This tree was X years old when it died, and the radiometric result is Y.Z

So when you do send an object to a lab for dating, and the radiometric result is Y.Z, it is about X years old.

How radiocarbon calibration works
http://www.rlaha.ox.ac.uk/orau/01_04.htm
As I understand it:
- The red line is the measured value in the sample.
- The blue line is the measured values for objects from that point in history.
- The black area is the likelihood that the sample came from that year.

No, the point of the question is whether survival is an individual or a species-wide instinct. Do organisms try to save themselves or save their kind?

Take some critters. The only difference is that one group protects their children and/or immediate family (not nessesarily the entire group, even, while the other is self-centered.

Predators pick off the wnadering children of the uncaring group, while they face the wrath of mature critters of the kind group.
Which one will do better after a few generations?

[ December 11, 2002, 19:31: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Was composing my post while you posted this. How are the Twinkies?

They're fine.

I am not trying to shut anybody down. In fact I had second thoughts about saying anything and deleted my Posts while you were quoting it.

If you guys want to keep talking about it I am not going to stop you. As long as everybody realizes they aren't likely to convince anyone in this forum and everything stays as cordial I guess I should just let it be.

It's hard for a moderator to know what to do sometimes.

Geoschmo

[Puke]

wow. such a calm and intelligent discussion, im sure the Last thing anyone wants is my two bits.

not to belittle this or anything, but I think the entire arguement is fairly sophmoric:

Creationist: god created the universe on a bet once, when he was drunk.

Scientician: the universe always existed, and came into its current stage via big bang, flying monkeys, or some other popular theory.

C: thats plain silly, where did the stuff come from that the universe came from? god had to create it at some point. it cant have always been there.

S: why the hell not, or i dunno? so where did god come from?

C: he/she/it was always there, of course.

S: so the universe cant have always existed, but god can?

C: you just dont have any faith

S: ive got faith in the universe. its right here. look. (jumping up and down)

C: now thats just plain silly. how do you think you got that soul and free will to jump up and down like that?

S: I evolved from a slug

C: no, along with the platapus, you are one of god's little jokes.

[Krsqk]

SJ, if only it were that simple. The geologic column comes with its own preconceived dates for each strata. Would post links, but Google with "geologic column" would work best.

[geoschmo]

I will grant that many people on either side of the debate can act illogical and immature, but the argument itself isn't what I would call sophomoric. It's one of the fundamental questions of our exsistence. What side of the debate you fall on influences almost every other factor of who you are as a human being.

Why are we here? Where did we come from? What does it all mean?

I for one have been delighted by the intelligent give and take, if a bit nervous waiting for the "other shoe" to drop and this thing to blow up on us. But hopefully that wont happen here.

I think that it's good for people of faith to see that people of science do believe in things, just not neccesarily the same things.
I think it's good for people of science to see that people of faith do think, just not neccsarily think the same things.

[ December 11, 2002, 19:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Why are we here? Where did we come from? What does it all mean?

What do you get when you multiply six by nine?