OT: Stardocks Fantasy TBS

[Gandalf Parker]

Not technically. Ive never received my official copy.
Its been available as a beat for download for years. And everytime I ask about a release someone will say "download the beta and jump into the MP games". Personally I think thats a terrible way to learn the game.

Recently AIs have been added but are still badly implemented and hard to use. Plus docs and tutorials are woefully lacking.

But I think the biggest problem is that it has gone TOO FAR in development. It has so many features that its almost impossible to learn the game from scratch at this point. And they just keep adding more. Ive begun to think that it will never achieve a "release version" unless Tim bets help from someone like Shrapnel.

[Sombre]

I read a sort of preview of this game on gamestop and it was nonstop alarm bells ringing for me.

Not anticipating this one at all.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Sombre

I read a sort of preview of this game on gamestop and it was nonstop alarm bells ringing for me.

Not anticipating this one at all.

Could you please elaborate?

[sector24]

You have a refreshing and ultra-rational approach to things, I too would like to hear why you're not interested.

Personally I think the game is starting to sound more and more like the fantasy version of GalCiv in which case I'll probably pass. GalCiv is great in its own way, but I don't think it has any replay value once you attain a certain level of competence. Same with Sins of a Solar Empire for that matter. A disturbing trend...

It's still too early to actually glean anything from the interviews and press releases though. Everything is still in the dreamtime phase where everything sounds "awesome" and no important design decisions have been revealed.

[Gandalf Parker]

I didnt find the comment surprising. And even with more info provided I wouldnt doubt that some people would not be interested. The good and bad of Brads styles of games tend to not be very impressive in areas of MP.

[licker]

Originally Posted by sector24

You have a refreshing and ultra-rational approach to things, I too would like to hear why you're not interested.

Personally I think the game is starting to sound more and more like the fantasy version of GalCiv in which case I'll probably pass. GalCiv is great in its own way, but I don't think it has any replay value once you attain a certain level of competence. Same with Sins of a Solar Empire for that matter. A disturbing trend...

It's still too early to actually glean anything from the interviews and press releases though. Everything is still in the dreamtime phase where everything sounds "awesome" and no important design decisions have been revealed.

Agreed, GalCiv becomes utterly pointless once you have mastered a few tricks, and other than putting strict self imposed limits on yourself (and I'm not talking about cheese...) the games are just an exercise in waiting for the inevitable and then deciding what the quickest way to win is without actually having to do anything other than click 'end turn'.

That said, I will likely get this game at some point anyway, just because I like Brad's overall philosophy of software, even if I don't always enjoy the actual products as much as I think I should. Still I'm sure I'd get enough game play out of it to justify the purchase.

I just hope that the actually design the game to allow for a competitive AI, as opposed to the incredibly open design of GalCiv which makes it seemingly impossible to actually have an AI capable of defending or attacking reasonably.

I have the same problem with AoW, though at least there you have MP, but the SP is just... uggg... tedious and painfully boring once you get the basics down due to the sheer idiocy of the game design crippling any potential for the AI to actually be somewhat competitive.

Oddly to most people, MoO3 had the best design to allow for a competitive AI, even if the initial release had a craptastic aI, however, the modders have actually addressed most of its major shortcomings, so that game actually plays pretty well now, well, if you can accept the macro style of empire management...

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Could you please elaborate?

Seriously, out what little we know, I'd be curious what looked out of place or wrong to you.


Re: Sector24 - GalCiv did peter out at some point, which made me sad. Recently I've just gotten back into Sins though, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes a good MP game for it. I know many people were really enjoying the MP aspect originally, and the game is only getting better - and while it doesn't pace itself for you, and get AS deep as Dominions, I'm discovering that the level of strategy is actually quite deep for an RTS.

I think that if a good 2 hour movie is worth $10, Elemental should end up well worth the $50 they are charging.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by licker

That said, I will likely get this game at some point anyway, just because I like Brad's overall philosophy of software, even if I don't always enjoy the actual products as much as I think I should. Still I'm sure I'd get enough game play out of it to justify the purchase.

Part of my reasoning as well. I want to see Brad's "approach" the industry succeed, and while so far Stardock hasn't made any of my "favorite games of all time", they have yet to totally disappoint me either.

Originally Posted by licker

I just hope that the actually design the game to allow for a competitive AI, as opposed to the incredibly open design of GalCiv which makes it seemingly impossible to actually have an AI capable of defending or attacking reasonably.

This one I don't get. As long as I could trade technology with people, I could keep my horse in the race, but at higher difficulties I don't see how you could ever be on top of the game, the AI just expands so fast, and produces so many ships all the time. Actually, it reminds me of how I feel about Dom3 SP. :P There reaches a point where one on difficulty setting, I can bulldoze the computer in my sleep, and on the next they just enact super-alliances that I can't find tactics able to defeat the 10-1 odds coming down on my head.

Originally Posted by licker

I have the same problem with AoW, though at least there you have MP, but the SP is just... uggg... tedious and painfully boring once you get the basics down due to the sheer idiocy of the game design crippling any potential for the AI to actually be somewhat competitive.

I love AoW2SM, for the game it is, and the world it contains. I'd still play it more, if you could auto-resolve battles and stay competitive in the game, but I find I have to manually play out every tactical battle, so as to absolutely minimize losses, and it just gets so annoying.

Originally Posted by licker

Oddly to most people, MoO3 had the best design to allow for a competitive AI, even if the initial release had a craptastic aI, however, the modders have actually addressed most of its major shortcomings, so that game actually plays pretty well now, well, if you can accept the macro style of empire management...

I thought I was the only one in the world that thought that MoO3 was pretty awesome. I almost cried when I played it far enough to see how broken it was, and then not long after, the "big patch" arrived, and fixed some things enough that the game it was could shine through the flaws that it had. Damn, now you're making me want to see if I can find that disk again..... Nice to have some variety in between Dom3 MP turns.

[sector24]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

Re: Sector24 - GalCiv did peter out at some point, which made me sad. Recently I've just gotten back into Sins though, and I'm trying to wrap my head around what makes a good MP game for it. I know many people were really enjoying the MP aspect originally, and the game is only getting better - and while it doesn't pace itself for you, and get AS deep as Dominions, I'm discovering that the level of strategy is actually quite deep for an RTS.

Here's my problem with Sins:

If you play SP, all you have to do to win is throw pirates at the opponent. If you turn pirates off, it's still fairly formulaic. Killing the enemy capital ship causes the regular ships to route, so you can always win any fight without taking serious losses. Again, it's one of those issues where you have to impose severe restrictions on yourself to create a challenging situation.

MP is a whole different issue, the game is interesting from a meta-strategy standpoint, but the first player to slip up and lose their fleet is out of the game. There's no way to rebuild once you tech up your fleet size at the cost of your income. So 90% of the game is feinting and retreating for that critical battle in which you irrevocably cripple your enemy. Then you just have to mop them up.

Admittedly an oversimplification of the game, but I think you get the idea I'm trying to get across. It was definitely fun for 20-30 hours.

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I think that if a good 2 hour movie is worth $10, Elemental should end up well worth the $50 they are charging.

I must be radically more stingy with entertainment/dollar ratio because I don't think movies are worth it unless the huge screen and surround sound make the movie. I like a game where I can sink a good 40-300+ hours for my $50.

[licker]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

This one I don't get. As long as I could trade technology with people, I could keep my horse in the race, but at higher difficulties I don't see how you could ever be on top of the game, the AI just expands so fast, and produces so many ships all the time. Actually, it reminds me of how I feel about Dom3 SP. :P There reaches a point where one on difficulty setting, I can bulldoze the computer in my sleep, and on the next they just enact super-alliances that I can't find tactics able to defeat the 10-1 odds coming down on my head.

Well I've played it both with notech trading and with tech trading, and tech trading only makes it easier.

The point is that you can completely ignore building any war ships at all until you see someone has researched transports, and even then, if you have kept up your engine tech you just build some fast ships and pick off the AI transports when they do show up.

The AI was terrible at defending them, and terrible at hunting down your ships. So who cares if they have 100 ships and you have 10, they cannot take your planets and you will eventually out tech them (since you aren't wasting credits on ships) and be able to plow their fleets with a couple battleships or whatever you need to make to counter them.

Its also fairly trivial to keep on buying them off so they don't even DoW you, and then you just let them screw around with the other AIs while you tech up to some decent military techs and have a small fleet of FAST ships to deal with whatever you need to deal with.

Mostly my issue with the game is that space is completely open, and the AI cannot handle that strategically or tactically. You can yo-yo their fleets with your faster fleets, you can draw them out then jump their underdefended planets with your fast transports. You can Culture bomb them and they don't retaliate effectively.

Like I said, its cool to have alot of tools to use, but if the AI cannot counter them effectively then the game is pointless once you finish the initial set up for your end strategy.

I had this discussion with Brad waaaaay back when, and advocated that they move away from open space to node lines, or at least something which let the AI focus its fleets more easilly. He rejected it for what were good reasons to him, but ultimately the decision made it impossible for the AI to deal with your fleets. He admitted as much latter when I kept on asking why the AI seems to not see your fleets when it should. Well it turns out it saw them, it just had no way to actually process the threat they posed. So it continued to leave transports undefended, and leave planets open to lightning invasions by speed 20+ ships...

All of that would have been moot if the design forced you to use nodes or warp lines, or whatever.

And i've played GC2 on the higher difficulty levels, it makes no difference, just takes you a little longer to achieve dominance. Oh, you can play with different galaxy settings and such to make the game more or less challenging, but ultimately it always comes down to the same thing. The AI cannot handle its fleets, so once you finish your economy set up, and survive (nominally by paying off a neighbor not to attack you, which is dirt cheap compared to actually fighting them), you just pump out a few teched up war ships, conquer someone (if you feel like it), or use them as active defense while you go for culture or tech or alliance, or whatever vic condition you think is fastest.