OT: Superman and Stemcells

[Evil Dave]

Arryn said:

You're getting warmer. Very warm.

Now I'm really confused. Societies that have encouraged (or at least tolerated) wife-beating have been around for a long time, and still seem to be doing pretty well compared to those that object to it. It's hard to make any argument for self-preservation from that. Nor can I see it on an individual basis, for similar reasons. If anything, the evidence is the other way: in some societies, the upper classes are the most tolerant of women, but it's often observed that those classes have the lowest birth rates. (Yes, that's correlation and not causation, but still: if I was gonna bet on who would have the most descendents, I'd bet on the poor, ignorant, illogical fool who treats his wife like dirt.)

[Truper]

Welcome to the club, Johan! Point out a few more of Arryn's foibles and inconsistencies, and you too can be invited to go "back into the woodwork you crawled out of".

It appears she doesn't understand the difference between flaming and stating an obvious truth, although it is hard to understand how this can be so, since she is obviously the very personification of logic.

[alexti]

Arryn said:
Desthai, religion fails the "reasonable doubt" test, nevermind the "shadow of a doubt" degree of proof. I had to say that first to get it out of my system.

Shall it be understood that you have a test *any* religion will fail? Or shall it be understood that you have knowledge of *all* religions and ready to present separate tests for each religion?

Arryn said:
Do you drive a car, or fly in airplanes? If so, you are placing an enormous amount of trust (enormous as in your life) in science, as well as in the skill of other drivers and mechanics. The reason you can get away with this is because the engineering these objects are based on is backed by meticulously-tested science

Probably by large, their engineering is based on practical experiments. And while you're at that, maybe you can explain the reason for lack of roll-cage in most cars? In particular, in the cars of individuals who place enormous value n their lives?

[Skolem]

Hi, I just beginn to read this post, but the topic is so near to my occupation, that I have to reply.
Arryn, are you trying to state, that "hard science (physic, chemistry and biology)" are more thrustworthy than religion, because they have hard proof of what they say?
IIRC this science are experimental, they state things, and prove them by testing them. How can you say that if something was thousand times observed it will function that way?
Actually I believe science wouldn't pass your religion test, as you believe in them having no proof for their truth, as did people believes in other religion.
Well will you say, but there is still mathematics, they don't rely on experiments, they are pure logic!
First, who say that the logical assumpitions we made are correct?
For exemple tertium non datur is highly debatable, as are other logical assumptions. And Last but not least, there is still the good, old, mighty Gödel argument, If you can prove me the consistency (that is the fact that a theory can not produce contradiction) of a theory, that can do simple arithmetic (you really dont need a lot, only something like non commutative additions of natural numbers) then I can prove you that your theory is inconsistent. What does this mean, it means that at best mathematicians can only know that they haven't any contradiction now, but they can never be sure that one can not arrive.
So you are saying you believe in something, who can prove , that it can't prove that it is correct. Well to believe in this (every mathematician does it), is for me the very same kind of faith act as to believe in a given religion, that is why so many Mathematician, and to a further extend Physician, believes in God (He has to make maths correct...!!!)
Skolem

[Cainehill]

johan osterman said:

This thin skinnedness is a bit rich coming from you. Whatever happened to 'not mincing words' and similar the phrases that you used to be so keen on.

I'm not sure she's thin skinned so much as pointing out a perceived hypocrisy, a double standard. If a notorious flamer (like Stormie or me) attacked her, she might brush it off. But it really does seem like anyone who insults someone associated with Illwinter / Shrapnel gets threatened with banning, or Banned. One of Shrapnel's people had posted a threat to that effect in the Last month. And in the Last week, Cohen was telling people again and again and again in all the MP games he was in that he'd been Banned from the forums for clashing with Zen. Of course, we all take Cohen with a grain of salt, but still.

If the powers that be want to have such a nice clean forum, they really shouldn't be throwing insults themselves. _That's_ the issue. If it's okay for a PTB to insult people, why isn't it okay for everyone else to insult people? Or for me, to insult non-people?

Or is it okay for straight forward insults to be cast about once more, in which case I don't need to be indirectly insulting to certain people anymore. Unless they're PTBs?

[johan osterman]

Shrug. Considering Arryns history of egging you on in your insults and her own history of calling her own incivility for honesty and 'not mincing words', I think Arryn should be prepared to take a few hits.

Also I haven't noticed any sharp decrease in your insults, but perhaps I just haven't been paying attention. Or perhaps you do not consider implying that boron is a moron an insult? A happenstance which resulted in a short congratulatory remark from Arryn, that paragon of consistancy.

[Arryn]

Johan, you're a first-rate hypocrite. It's okay behavior when you flame someone, and your groupies Truper and Graeme Dice chime in with their support, yet you find it objectionable when someone else does it. And the admins and Moderators of this forum are contemptible. They sit back and do nothing when one of their own flagrantly abuses the forum rules, letting you flame someone simply because you don't like them and don't agree with them, as you did in this thread. And they continue to do nothing as you go on to taunt me in further Posts to see if you can get a rise out of me. You're petty and vindictive, and the Moderators are pathetic for allowing you to get away with it. In fairness to at least two of the mods, it's probably because the senior forum admins won't let them step in and moderate in a just and balanced manner (as they used to a few months ago). The best and fairest mods are now all but impotent, and (sadly) it shows.

As for track records, shall I dig up your old Posts where you react to criticism by flaming? Your record is that of slinging the first mud. You've always given excuses that you were "justified". Quit pretending to be holier than thou. You're not only no better than Caine, myself, and others, but you're actually worse, because as a "moderator" you're supposed to set an example for behavior. The only example you set is the worst possible one. Disgusting.

[johan osterman]

I have not written in order to get a rise out of you. Though I have certainly been annoyed at you. As for the other Moderators they have to speak for themselves. I am not Zen or Gandalf. I have never used any moderator powers at all, whatever that is worth. And I do not feel I have flagrantly abused the rules. Also as far as I am concerned I have not claimed to be holier either than you or Caine. I am not even aware that I flamed anyone, although I have been snide at times, includinf towards you. However I will bow out of this now since I am getting irritated to the point were I will become abusive if I continue.

[Kristoffer O]

Arryn: I agree that my brother was more rude than was called for and I apologize for not keeping him in line .

However I wonder what you mean by saying that the mods and admins do nothing. Is it because you do not percieve any changes in mod activities? Discussions between mods and admin are evidently not official. Some matters take a bit of time and might not be resolved as quickly as you would prefer. I hope that you can trust us and believe that we are concerned about keeping the forum civil.

Regarding senior admins disallowing Moderators to moderate I am baffled. What do you mean? I'm not too happy about rumor mongering. If you mean Psitticine when you refer to the fairest mods I can only say that I miss him as well, both as beta tester, manual writer and as moderator, but admin policies has nothing to do with him disappearing.

Moderation should be something each and every one of us did, to ourselves and to our friends at these Boards. Instead of encouraging snide remarks we could tell our friends to refrain from them (Jesus has spoken ).

[Arryn]

Kristoffer O said:
Arryn: I agree that my brother was more rude than was called for and I apologize for not keeping him in line .

Thank you, Kris. BTW, are you your brother's keeper?

Kristoffer O said:
However I wonder what you mean by saying that the mods and admins do nothing. Is it because you do not percieve any changes in mod activities? Discussions between mods and admin are evidently not official. Some matters take a bit of time and might not be resolved as quickly as you would prefer. I hope that you can trust us and believe that we are concerned about keeping the forum civil.

Well, for example, the lack of balance in moderating has been really irksome and unfair. Someone will jump into a thread in which they haven't been participating at all just to flame me (Truper's done this in two separate threads recently) and if I respond to his attack, an admin (like Tim) will chastise *me*. That's hardly just. What am I supposed to do? Just sit back and allow anyone to insult me (or worse) and say nothing at all? If you say that I should complain in PM to a mod/admin, I've done that. As of today, I'm *still* waiting for a reply to a PM I sent Tim a week ago. Nor did my clicking on the "report this post" icons have any response. It very much seems that Shrapnel's management of this forum is anything but impartial or fair. And anyone that tries to criticise the way they manage things gets threatened. I trust and respect you, Kris. You've been fair in the past, even when you weren't particularly happy with me for that stupidly-worded poll I made. And I trust Gandalf and Zen. But none of you run this forum. You may be more important than the average person on this forum, but you don't control it. Essentially, you're a guest here, as the rest of us are. Albeit an honored guest.

Kristoffer O said:
Regarding senior admins disallowing Moderators to moderate I am baffled. What do you mean? I'm not too happy about rumor mongering. If you mean Psitticine when you refer to the fairest mods I can only say that I miss him as well, both as beta tester, manual writer and as moderator, but admin policies has nothing to do with him disappearing.

Actually, I didn't know he'd disappeared until you told me now. And I miss him too. Regardless, I wasn't referring to him. You may not have noticed (though I and others have) that Gandalf and Zen no longer try to step in to calm things down and reason with disputing folks to get them to see each other's points of view, or at least to lay off the flames. This change in behavior coincides with the forum upgrade and also suspiciously with Zen's hiatus not long ago. Neither Zen nor Gandalf have been particularly reluctant in the past to express their personal views or to step in, whenever they thought they should, and especially if they've been asked to intervene by someone in PM. Until recently. Furthermore, the forum software no longer permits Moderators to trim individual Posts that are found to be offensive. All of this smacks very much of an official policy decision on the part of Shrapnel. A policy that IMO is not conducive to a smoothly running forum. And policy issues aside, there's still the matter of balanced enforcement of etiquette. "Do as I command, nevermind my own behavior, and don't you dare criticize me" isn't the way to win hearts and minds.

Thanks again, Kris, for caring enough to ask questions, and even more so for listening.