Mod: MA al-Nadim - The thousand and one nights 1.01)

[Wrana]

I see your point of view. Maybe more on that later.
For now - results of playtests:
0. A list of Arabian names is required. Actually, I had one made for my own attempt and you may use it (link was here somewhere, or just ask and I'll repost it soon).
1. Scouts & Spies require higher Stealth than +0. Currently, even independent Scouts have Stealth +10. And Spies with Stealth +0 are just unusable.
2. Dervishes die in droves. It's probably possible to prevent it with large masses and W9 bless, but even so it won't be so good a unit - though certainly able to cause much damage with F bless. I didn't test possible tweaks but currently they aren't so good.
3. Why so big Water? And almost no Air. Especially on Jinn it would be more thematic, I think.
4. Mullah is described as being judge, while having no such ability - or any other which would make him preferable to Mystic.
5. Vizier is described as mage of Air - and has no Air access.
6. Why Str 11 on beduin troops? I agree with Enc 3 for their cavalry - but this?
7. Marid Bei has no paths to summon lesser Marids. On the other hand, Ifrit Bei is very hard to summon without using Pretender.
8. Considering Pretenders - I don't think Fountains appropriate here. But Monolith and Divine Glyph would be. Some Middle-East-themed Pretenders also (Morning Star, Lords of Desert..., maybe even Shedu), as well as Virtue.
9. Considering Alhazred - I'd give him at least Summoning skill.

And yes, archers are quite usable - and would be even better with more access to Air! I don't see what do you mean by capital-only infantry, but they should probably get some weapon other than scimitar...

[elmokki]

Originally Posted by Wrana

I see your point of view. Maybe more on that later.
For now - results of playtests:
0. A list of Arabian names is required. Actually, I had one made for my own attempt and you may use it (link was here somewhere, or just ask and I'll repost it soon).
1. Scouts & Spies require higher Stealth than +0. Currently, even independent Scouts have Stealth +10. And Spies with Stealth +0 are just unusable.
2. Dervishes die in droves. It's probably possible to prevent it with large masses and W9 bless, but even so it won't be so good a unit - though certainly able to cause much damage with F bless. I didn't test possible tweaks but currently they aren't so good.
3. Why so big Water? And almost no Air. Especially on Jinn it would be more thematic, I think.
4. Mullah is described as being judge, while having no such ability - or any other which would make him preferable to Mystic.
5. Vizier is described as mage of Air - and has no Air access.
6. Why Str 11 on beduin troops? I agree with Enc 3 for their cavalry - but this?
7. Marid Bei has no paths to summon lesser Marids. On the other hand, Ifrit Bei is very hard to summon without using Pretender.
8. Considering Pretenders - I don't think Fountains appropriate here. But Monolith and Divine Glyph would be. Some Middle-East-themed Pretenders also (Morning Star, Lords of Desert..., maybe even Shedu), as well as Virtue.
9. Considering Alhazred - I'd give him at least Summoning skill.

And yes, archers are quite usable - and would be even better with more access to Air! I don't see what do you mean by capital-only infantry, but they should probably get some weapon other than scimitar...

0 - Isn't the amount of custom name lists limited? Oh well, I reckon I could make specific version with a name list at some point for people who don't want to mix a dozen mods. I do agree that arabic names would be far more thematic.
1 - It's a known issue. Fixed in 0.87, though scouts are +25 and should be +10.
2 - Yeah, I tested them a bit in single player. They aren't too awesome, but then again lesser ifrit and lesser marid are very usable with a water bless too, so I reckon they have their use if you have a water or fire bless as they're very easily massable with low resource cost and recruit everywhere. They're definately supposed to be flagellants on steroids, which is pretty much the role they are filling now.
3 - The water used to be air, which is why the descriptions were borked. I don't really know why I thought air was so good along the obvious fire. Water fits marids better, and it also has far more interesting synergy with fire. I do agree that the djinn themselves could have air, but I'm afraid about giving the nation more magic diversity. Air would give more power to dervishes with arrow fend and storm to shield them from arrows, but that's not a reason to add arrows. I've already once weakened dervishes for being too good anyway.
4 - He's considerably cheaper and doesn't need a temple to build. That said recruiting them is somewhat wasteful as you could spend your castle commander slot to recruiting a mystic or a vizier. That, however, is the issue with any national basic priest or commander in any nation. The description actually says "clerics and attourneys", so no judges there. I gave them 40 leadership and made them PD commanders to show of their somewhat adminstrative nature though. Imams, who actually have the judge thing in their description, might get patrol bonus, but the description is there primarily to tell that they have an adminstrative role along with their religious role.
5 - see answer to question 3
6 - Sauromatian light cavalry has str 11. That's where I took that from iirc. I reckon they could have str 10 as well.
7 - Yeah, I just thought about those today. I reckon I'll make marids pure water summons which would fix both but would also forget the smokeless fire-thingie.
8 - I don't think you can remove any of the current ones from the selection. The ones you suggested should definately be added there though.
9 - I don't think you can give it without #copystats, and I already need to #copystats for insanity, which I find more essential than summoning skill.

Some other weapon than scimitar for mubarizun would look good as currently they're scimitar infantry with different colors, but I really have no clue what weapon would be somewhat historical, balanced and look cool.

Air would surely make archers better, but then again it'd make the mages worse. Having both fire and air on one mage is rather useless, but having fire and water is good for acid spells

[kennydicke]

elmokki

Some other weapon than scimitar for mubarizun would look good as currently they're scimitar infantry with different colors, but I really have no clue what weapon would be somewhat historical, balanced and look cool.

Arabian Weapons that might fit the bill:
Falchion
Acinaces (short sword)
Saif (scimitar with a normal curve)
Shamshir (scimitar with a dramatic curve)
Tabar Zin (short- or long-shafted, crescent-bladed battle-axe)
Sagaris (long-shafted battle-axe, pick-axe or hammer)

Cool fact: The Tabar Zin is sometimes carried as a ceremonial weapon by modern-day wandering dervishes.

I like this nation pretty well; not too strong, not too weak. Is the camel commander supposed to have 'bite' instead of 'camel bite'?

My bro liked it, too. He had a strange problem with the scimitars: they were all 7-1-1-2 and magic - must have been a conflict with another mod.

Also, your maps are my favorites.

[elmokki]

Originally Posted by kennydicke

elmokki

Arabian Weapons that might fit the bill:
Falchion
Acinaces (short sword)
Saif (scimitar with a normal curve)
Shamshir (scimitar with a dramatic curve)
Tabar Zin (short- or long-shafted, crescent-bladed battle-axe)
Sagaris (long-shafted battle-axe, pick-axe or hammer)

Cool fact: The Tabar Zin is sometimes carried as a ceremonial weapon by modern-day wandering dervishes.

I like this nation pretty well; not too strong, not too weak. Is the camel commander supposed to have 'bite' instead of 'camel bite'?

My bro liked it, too. He had a strange problem with the scimitars: they were all 7-1-1-2 and magic - must have been a conflict with another mod.

Also, your maps are my favorites.

Thanks. Good to hear you like the nation (and my maps for that matter) and good to hear that you think it's not over or underpowered

Camel Commanders should definately have camel bite. I forgot to change it for them apparently.

The swords would look pretty much like the scimitar anyway and the axes seem to be a bit persian. Then again the dervishes are pretty persian too, so I'll have to think about it.

On other news, I just noticed the castles for most terrains are "Simple Hillfort" or something like that. What castles should I get to what terrains?

Plains is obviously fortified city. If I get no better input for others I'll make other terrains have generic 800 gold fortresses that have better adm than the 5 the "Simple Hillfort" has.

[kennydicke]

elmokki

Thanks. Good to hear you like the nation (and my maps for that matter) and good to hear that you think it's not over or underpowered

You're welcome, but I'm not a good judge.

The swords would look pretty much like the scimitar anyway and the axes seem to be a bit persian. Then again the dervishes are pretty persian too, so I'll have to think about it.

There's always the old standby: spears.

On other news, I just noticed the castles for most terrains are "Simple Hillfort" or something like that. What castles should I get to what terrains?

The 'simple hillforts' give them a more nomadic, Bedouin-type feel. I think 'ramparts', 'motte-and-baileys' and even 'simple fortresses' could give the same feel with a better admin value, if that's your goal.

[llamabeast]

Hey elmokki! I was just wondering - are you still maintaining this mod? I had another look at it and it is LOVELY, but also I found a few bugs. The most noticeable one was that the Viziers had fire and air magic, where they're described as having fire and water magic. Is this deliberate? I have a few other comments as well if you're still interested in updating it.

[attackdrone]

I noticed a few minor issues with what is quickly becoming one of my favorite mod nations.

1- Marid/Ifrit Beys and Sultans are not magic leaders. Perhaps the Beys should gain the #okmagicleader tag, and the Sultans the #goodmagicleader or #expertmagicleader tag.

2- None of the Marid/Ifrit Beys or Sultans are priests. Making the Beys a level 1-2 priest and the Sultans a level 2-3 priest would open up some middle-late game strategies that synergise well with the early game. As it is I need to put flying boots on a pack of Viziers (due to #1) and an Imam (due to #2) to link up with my Marid Sultans and Ifrits.

I went ahead and implemented your suggested changes for fort creation and Marids summoned using water only (so a Marid Bey/Sultan can summon helpers - it is much more thematic). I have them making Simple Fortress (1000 gold, 20 adm, 4 turns) by default, with a Forest Fortress (1000 gold, 15 adm, 4 turns) in the forest, a Simple Hillfort (800 gold, 5 adm, 3 turns) in the mountains, and a Swamp Fort (800 gold, 0 adm, 3 turns) in the swamp. This seems to balance well in my test games. They don't need a lot of administration for the triple bless strategy I went with.

...

On another note, Water-9, Fire-9, Astral-9 Dervishes are pretty fantastic! The dual scimitars pack a punch. The price/resource point seems about right, on par with Vanheim Skinshifters and Mictlan Jaguar Warriors. Of course, Dervishes die more often (so use Arrow Catcher shield-infantry)!

[elmokki]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Hey elmokki! I was just wondering - are you still maintaining this mod? I had another look at it and it is LOVELY, but also I found a few bugs. The most noticeable one was that the Viziers had fire and air magic, where they're described as having fire and water magic. Is this deliberate? I have a few other comments as well if you're still interested in updating it.

I haven't been playing Dominions 3 much in the last four months or so, and I can't really say I'm actively maintaning the mod. Anyone willing is free to pick it up for sure. Though I expect anyone who picks it up to keep the unit selection and stats in similiar enough so that it still is al-Nadim - new mods need new names

But yeah, I'll probably get interested enough to update the mod now that I started a MP game again anyway.

[elmokki]

Originally Posted by attackdrone

I noticed a few minor issues with what is quickly becoming one of my favorite mod nations.

1- Marid/Ifrit Beys and Sultans are not magic leaders. Perhaps the Beys should gain the #okmagicleader tag, and the Sultans the #goodmagicleader or #expertmagicleader tag.

That's definately a bug. Being magic beings who are leaders to lesser magic beings they definately should be better leaders.

2- None of the Marid/Ifrit Beys or Sultans are priests. Making the Beys a level 1-2 priest and the Sultans a level 2-3 priest would open up some middle-late game strategies that synergise well with the early game. As it is I need to put flying boots on a pack of Viziers (due to #1) and an Imam (due to #2) to link up with my Marid Sultans and Ifrits.

There's game balance to consider too and I really don't have much clue about that - though it isn't like getting one flying imam should be that huge problem anyway so it shouldn't matter much. In terms of plausibility I reckon that in the general theme of al-Nadim it'd make sense that the djinni are devout followers of the new god and could well have some priestly powers.

Besides, in a more djinni orientated EA version atleast the marids would definately have priestly powers.

I went ahead and implemented your suggested changes for fort creation and Marids summoned using water only (so a Marid Bey/Sultan can summon helpers - it is much more thematic). I have them making Simple Fortress (1000 gold, 20 adm, 4 turns) by default, with a Forest Fortress (1000 gold, 15 adm, 4 turns) in the forest, a Simple Hillfort (800 gold, 5 adm, 3 turns) in the mountains, and a Swamp Fort (800 gold, 0 adm, 3 turns) in the swamp. This seems to balance well in my test games. They don't need a lot of administration for the triple bless strategy I went with.

By the looks of it there's a version I released that I didn't bother to release on these forums. It's available at http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim090.zip and the patch notes are as follows:

0.87 -> 0.9 changelog
- Scout stealth nerfed to the usual +10
- Camel Commander has finally stopped biting the enemies himself and now lets his camel do that.
- Beduin Horse Archer lost his buckler.
- Ghul are sacred in both forms. They still are technically djinn, even if tainted and evil and whatever.
- Ghul gets stealth +10.
- Highest tier summons removed.
- Marids are now just "djinn" while ifrits are special, stronger djinn. Due to that marids now have fire resistance instead of cold resistance and slightly worse stats.
- Djinn Bey (old marid bey) now has F2A2S1 with 110% FAES (same as grand vizier)
- Ifrit Bey now has with 2F1A1D 110% FADE
- Djinns are summonable at research levels 4 and 5 and ifrits at 5 and 6. Gem costs are slightly adjusted too.
- Viziers and Grand Viziers swap their W to A and their E random is changed to W random as I happen to love acid spells.
- Start fort changed to Great City, as it does suit better.
- Built forts are:
-> Fortified city for farm, plains and waste
-> Mountain Fortress for mountains
-> Forest Fortress for forests
-> Swamp Fort for swamps

Now, I seriously can't understand the reasoning for the magic path changes and I would now reconsider the removal of the most powerful summons, so I'll probably have to make a 0.91 that fixes that soon.

Regarding the fort changes, I don't remember the fort stats for those, but I believe that they are apart from Swamp Fort relatively big forts. I think it'd suit to make them smaller, more like what you suggested.

...

On another note, Water-9, Fire-9, Astral-9 Dervishes are pretty fantastic! The dual scimitars pack a punch. The price/resource point seems about right, on par with Vanheim Skinshifters and Mictlan Jaguar Warriors. Of course, Dervishes die more often (so use Arrow Catcher shield-infantry)!

Sounds like they are filling the exact role they are supposed to be filling. I just hope that they aren't too powerful in comparison to the alternatives since what I wanted was to have a sacred that is atleast somewhat viable with a bless BUT that isn't so overpowering that the only competitive way to play the nation is to go for a bless. Al-Nadim just has a good pile of other tools too.

Besides I still think the camels look very damn cool and should have some use

Also, I'm tempted to add some sort of a mounted beduin magician that has enough magic to be an useful addition to a stealthy beduin raiding party.

[elmokki]

Instead of studying I actually updated the mod: http://nikita.tnnet.fi/~elmokki/alnadim091.zip

I'd really like some input on things.

First of all, the sacred unit should either be niche or useful but not dominating all other strategies. I do believe it's either one of those (they may kill a lot, but they also drop like flies), but am I correct in that regard?

Secondly, are the beduins useful? What should be done if they're not useful enough as stealthy raider cavalry?

Thirdly, is Mystic an useful unit? If it isn't, would it be as a possibly mounted (doesn't matter much though since inside enemy territory it's one province per turn anyway) mage with 1H1S1F 110% FS instead of the current 1H1S? That might solve some problems if beduins aren't viable too. At 90 gold mystics probably are cheap enough to be used as communion slaves for Grand Viziers though - which is a thing I'm not really sure what I should think of.

And lastly, should the camels be buffed? I really would like to see them in action if I ever stumble into a multiplayer game with al-Nadim.

Forts are still something to update later.