Battlefield spell + retreating?

[K]

Actually, the only way of knowing for sure is polling all the players of DominionsIII, both those playing in current games in the Multiplayer forum and those not. Just because the host of a certain game thinks it's bad doesn't mean that all of the players in that game think it's wrong.

That being said, based on the representative sample it is easy to draw a conclusion that the vast majority of players don't have a problem.

Arguing that there might be implicit or "unwritten" rules that support the opposite conclusion is exactly the same as saying "the available evidence doesn't support my opinion, but I'd like you to believe my position even though I don't have any evidence."

Heck, I'd be surprised if the majority of the players on llamabeast's servers even knew about his implicit rules, or are playing by them.

[sum1lost]

No, it is not easy. All you can draw from your sample is that most players have not explicitly expressed a concern, or it has not been brought to their attention.

[K]

sum1lost said:
No, it is not easy. All you can draw from your sample is that most players have not explicitly expressed a concern, or it has not been brought to their attention.

It's a little hard to imagine that roughly 4 out of 5 Multiplayer players are uninformed or unwilling to express concern. MP players tend to be better informed about the game, especially the ones that frequent the forums.

As I said before, all the evidence points to a loud and very outspoken minority who are attempting to dominate the conversation, and there is no credible evidence supporting their positions. When someone points out the flaws in every aspect of their argument, they get louder.

Having proved my point, I'll exit stage left.

[Jazzepi]

sum1lost said:
No, it is not easy. All you can draw from your sample is that most players have not explicitly expressed a concern, or it has not been brought to their attention.

I agree. Personally my feelings are that the games that don't ban MoD + BE exploit don't do so because the creator hasn't experienced the awesome *** kicking that it can be. Just for the record, I'm 99% certain that the combo was abused during the first Megagame.

I know Micah used a QoA equipped with armor of virture + Shimmering Fields + a golem with 100% lighting resistance against me in Dolphin. That was pretty frustrating, but I deserved to get kicked around, and if I had a proper army I could have killed the golem, and at least made the QoA retreat, thus ending the shimmering fields.

It's pretty silly for K to say that people who don't explicitly ban an obscure combo that breaks the game implicitly support its use. I would say the vast majority of people who don't ban it explicitly don't know about the sheer game breaking potential, or even that the exploit exists at all.

Jazzepi

[sum1lost]

K said:

It's a little hard to imagine that roughly 4 out of 5 Multiplayer players are uninformed or unwilling to express concern. MP players tend to be better informed about the game, especially the ones that frequent the forums.

As I said before, all the evidence points to a loud and very outspoken minority who are attempting to dominate the conversation, and there is no credible evidence supporting their positions. When someone points out the flaws in every aspect of their argument, they get louder.

Having proved my point, I'll exit stage left.

You have still not proven your point. Your argument of a vocal minority apply better to you than to the individuals who disagree with you. There are more people who are vocal about it getting banned than who are vocal about keeping it. In no way does that mean the people who have not said anything agree with you. If they did agree with you, they are more than capable of speaking up without your assistance. It requires an enormous lapse in logic to suppose that because they do not explicitly take oneside, they must be in support of the other. Which they haven't explicitly supported either, BTW.
Think about it for a minute, instead of simply getting louder when someone points out the flaws in your argument.

[Jazzepi]

Great point, sum1lost. If you imagine that opposition, and support, for MoD was completely evenly distributed through the community you would see a bell shaped curve of distribution.

A few people would be really irritated on either end, but most people would fall in the middle.

Instead, you see one, maybe two, people defending MoD + battlefield enchantments, and a whole host of people saying it's clearly an exploit.

Talk as much as you want about the "silent majority", but examining where the tips of the bell curve are coming down is much more telling. It's clear that the bell curve of opinion regarding the usage of MoD + BFE is hugely shifted towards it being an exploit and not a viable tactic.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

Isnt that a fallacy to define the split that way?
Those in favor and those against?

This forum is continually full of people learning the game. And many of the MP games include people just getting into MP. So while it might be true that the majority of the vocals are against it, I think that would be one side vs the many people who are unaware of it. And therein lies the discussion.

While I am not against someone saying something like "its generally known that is an exploit", that would be different than something like saying "you violated an unspoken rule" and trying to declare cheating or something. If the person running the game does not specify it as a rule, or does not have a link to something like "the standard rules in the games I run", then I wouldnt be big on unspoken rules. I cant think of any that I would consider default.

But then again Im not big on defaults in general. I think the mp games are getting too standardized just to create bragging rights, and are ignoring many of the games most interesting settings.

[JimMorrison]

Sorry Gandalf, if there was anything improper about that last post.

Judging by the number of items on the list that have cyan Dev text next to them, the amount of time it has been on the list, and my recollection of comments that KO made in the last thread I remember about MoD - it was all but written in neon. If it's not, I can only apologize for the misrepresentation.


In any case, Sum1 beat me to it. Since majority rules, those of us who are vocally against it, who greatly outnumber you, K, hereby claim the silent ones as supporters of our position, stealing them from you as their silence clearly shows that they disagreed with you co-opting their opinions.

7/37 game threads specifically ban the move, 0/37 specifically state that it is acceptable. How can you possibly claim that as devastating evidence that everyone who can't be arsed to post here, supports you?

This is fun. I like how when you talk circles around a lawyer (or law student), they continue trying to think that you are the one standing still.

[Gandalf Parker]

You points may be correct.
But I know that there are things on the lists that the devs consider important but the time consideration tends to decide it more. If it comes to many little fun things or one big unfun thing than the big thing can get unhappily set back. It doesnt make it not important.

On your other points, I was unaware that this had been discussed in the games thread. That does make a difference.

[Twan]

How have you counted the games using my MoD fix ?

I think if games like the current mega one and 2 others use modding just to change this spell (and it's the *only* spell which get its effects changed in the whole spell list) it show people are very reluctant to see the vanilla version used in MP.