OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

You put the finger on my problem with truth etc. The christian article of faith includes the belief in God becoming flesh in Jesus and sacrificing his son for the salvation of mankind. Of course there have been other articles of faith that claim to be christian. Once they were considered heretic. Today they are just considered other faiths. Jehovah's Witnesses are not christian according to the earlier christian articles of faith, but they consider themselves christian.

If there is a God there is a truth and only one of the articles of faith is true. I can't get rid of my logically based worldview - thus do not think there can be multiple truths regarding the truth.

New articles of faith where an individual or a religious movement states his/its beliefs might be true, but they cannot be true at the same time as every other article of faith. If we accept multiple truths there will be some faiths and ideologies that readily accepts practices others would abhor. So if there is no truth other than what everyone accepts for his own truth a believer of a truth could legitimize atrocities. I do not like atrocities. This is why I hate postmodernism. On the other hand I dislike people who would force their will and their beliefs upon others. Since there is no way of knowing which belief system is the TRUTH I dislike people who believe they know the truth and what they might do. Everyone who believes in a truth has a moral duty to his own belief system. Thus a believer in a truth is potentially a dangerous man in the view of someone not sharing the same belief system. My problem with postmodernism might be that it defends fundamentalist beliefs. Somewhat ironic.

Didn't Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all technically start with Moses? So they all believe in the same god, but in very different ways.

They are all believers in the same entity, and they all think the others are heading to hell. Now you have dozens of individual Christian denominations, and many of them think that many of the others are going to hell.

I'd bet that in just about any given church around the world, you can find people who will tell you that other members of that same church, are heading straight to hell.

Obviously no one sane is advocating a clear distinction of "violence is okay if directed at someone who does not believe correctly", but what if they try to preach their version of the truth to your friends, your loved ones, your children? Is no sacrifice too great to save them from being corrupted by heretical thoughts? Would you sacrifice a simple non-believer, because they were an adequate threat to your loved ones' ability to enter into heaven?

(That's not really directed at you Kristoffer, just what you wrote inspired it, so I quoted you. )

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

A set of values shared and maintained by a society usually works fine. Society shapes values and ethics, and if religion is used to legitimize the ethics of a society, fine. When religion is shaped and legitimized by society, nice.

The problem, mister Kristoffer, is that "values" aren't "mantained". They are supposed to enrich, grow and evolve in time, as you know.
My problem with religion in society is that often it wants to "anchor" ethics and morals to the period their Holy Books were written - at the times they were given as godly commandments to make them more easily acceptable, but now, 2/3 thousand years later, they are still perceived as godly commandment, even after we've gone through Renaissance, Illuminism, Sexual Revolution and our values should have changed and have become more opened.

In Italy, the most of the ppl still has many problems to accept homosexuals as NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS (I mean, it doesn't sound a so terrible thing to do ) because we've, everyday, this or that man high in the ecclesiastical hierarchy reading a passage of the Bible in national television and saying they're an abomination and their love is "twisted" and "innatural". I can hardly imagine something more narrow-minded and terrible (not to say less god-inspired) that considering someone's way to LOVE "twisted" and "innatural" - not even knowing it and with science (and bare nature, look at animals, even them have heterosexuality and homosexuality as well, it's far more natural than chastity) stating the exact opposite.

Ok, I've gone for the lenghts and I'm off topic - I just wanted to say that I disagree that religion "legitimizes" many of the ethics of current society - in fact it tends to immobilize them, stops their natural evolution through people's experiences, and I can't really get how it could be a good thing.

Btw if anyone is curious I'm not homosexual ^_^ I live my heterosexual life happily and with satisfaction - but I have some homosexual friends, males and females, and I just hate to see how my society looks at them many times.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally Posted by Tifone

The problem, mister Kristoffer, is that "values" aren't "mantained". They are supposed to enrich, grow and evolve in time, as you know.
My problem with religion in society is that often it wants to "anchor" ethics and morals to the period their Holy Books were written - at the times they were given as godly commandments to make them more easily acceptable, but now, 2/3 thousand years later, they are still perceived as godly commandment, even after we've gone through Renaissance, Illuminism, Sexual Revolution and our values should have changed and have become more opened.

In Italy, the most of the ppl still has many problems to accept homosexuals as NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS (I mean, it doesn't sound a so terrible thing to do ) because we've, everyday, this or that man high in the ecclesiastical hierarchy reading a passage of the Bible in national television and saying they're an abomination and their love is "twisted" and "innatural". I can hardly imagine something more narrow-minded and terrible (not to say less god-inspired) that considering someone's way to LOVE "twisted" and "innatural" - not even knowing it and with science (and bare nature, look at animals, even them have heterosexuality and homosexuality as well, it's far more natural than chastity) stating the exact opposite.

Ok, I've gone for the lenghts and I'm off topic - I just wanted to say that I disagree that religion "legitimizes" many of the ethics of current society - in fact it tends to immobilize them, stops their natural evolution through people's experiences, and I can't really get how it could be a good thing.

Btw if anyone is curious I'm not homosexual ^_^ I live my heterosexual life happily and with satisfaction - but I have some homosexual friends, males and females, and I just hate to see how my society looks at them many times.

I agree. I think Sweden is a bit more accepting than Italy, but my homosexual friends do suffer some by general conceptions, generalizations and beliefs.

Religion is the single most effective preserver of society. Be it social structures, world view or traditions. It is conservative by nature.


Since most sacred scriptures are old and shaped by a society far from today I would probably become either desperate to find a coherence between my ethics and my newfound belief in a revealed truth, or become a full-fledged fanatic, should I get a revelation from God.

Neither prospect seems to attractive Hmm, thats a new though, I might not be happy as a christian

If I turned christian by slow socialization I would proably not turn into a fanatic, and be rather friendly and happy and inclusive of all kids of postmodern beliefs in personal truths and Gods.

[Tifone]

I think we're all deeply thinking adults here, maybe even with a quite high QI, but thanks for your interest
If you want to go deep into some religious mistery, please feel free to do it and maybe we can "solve" even them through discussion and multiple points of view from the most believers to the most skeptics

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I've seen and experienced things that would blow your mind and test your faith

"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion"? "C-Beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate"?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Tifone

"Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion"? "C-Beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate"?

Actually, though I won't go into profound personal details, the term "Near Death Experience" isn't nearly enough. "Temporary Death Experience" might describe things more clearly. The universe looks a little bit different when your heart stops beating, and you stop breathing. And the world looks a bit different when you start doing those things again, perhaps a bit unexpectedly.

[Tifone]

Seems like a "forming experience" nobody would really like to experience Jim...


Returning into the "Bible" subject, I was wondering if anybody knows this site other than me: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com.
It discusses many matters of faith from the atheist and strongly reason-guided point of view. Who, like me, doesn't believe (while I'm agnostic and not atheist) will find an interesting reading there.
A believer instead, may wish to give a read and give a little "test" to his/her faith against the arguments of the author (I'm not in any way connected to the website). I thing it has some strong points - of course it is to be read without prejudices, and just letting your own brain and reason work .
If anyone reads the site and wants to discuss something he's welcome.

Best wishes

[HoneyBadger]

It's not meant to be insulting, and I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to put things in perspective. I believe Humanity to have a vast potential, and you're absolutely right-it has already achieved spectacular results.

I'm not committed to solopsism, I'm just intrigued by it-and for the record, I do believe you exist apart from me. But it's still just a belief. And I don't find solopsism pessimistic. It's all in how you take it, and what you do with it. For me, the consideration of it quiets some of the fears and uncertainties that *I* have about the Universe, and myself, and my place in it. Doesn't silence them, but helps me, as-as you say-a though experiment, deal with my life without going completely insane.

But none of that denies the uselessness, and even harmfulness, of trying to weigh belief-systems against one another. If anything, you should be trying to integrate the best parts of each into a greater whole.

[HoneyBadger]

"To put it another way: If all you do is feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and tend to the sick without ever telling them about Jesus, then all you've accomplished is to send well-fed, well-dressed, healthy people to Hell."

SlipperyJim: It's this line right here, this perfect moment of crystal clarity, in which you render your entire faith, religion, and hope of salvation, utterly and completely empty, meaningless, forever a non-relevant, non-entity--atleast for me and for everything I hold to be good.

You seem like a true believer, a representative of the faith, a man of God, and a man who atleast *wants* to do good, so I thank you for giving me an insight into what lies at the heart of one Christian's relationship with God-you've put to bed any lingering doubts I might ever have had about not being a Christian anymore. Free from angst that my life might have been better and richer, had I chosen another path, I continue on, stronger and freer than ever before.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

SlipperyJim: It's this line right here, this perfect moment of crystal clarity, in which you render your entire faith, religion, and hope of salvation, utterly and completely empty, meaningless, forever a non-relevant, non-entity--atleast for me and for everything I hold to be good.

Well, ok, that seemed to me a bit antagonistic i was jus hoping to prevent the starting to a flame, forgive me ^_^

Not of course that I like SlipperyJim's words too, btw. He calls himself a fundamentalist, which means his style of life is just different from the "average guy" he depicted (btw, I'd also like to know how it is so different if he was willing to say us ) and whoever lives his life in a less "God-driven" way (whatever it means) than him is going to Hell.

Of course I'm not accepting it. I just think at my grandma, she died last year. She was a very good woman, religious and a "good Christian", going to the church every sunday and so.
But of course "Jesus" wasn't the purpose or the "engine" of her life.
Her 2 sons were: my mother and my uncle. 2 sons that she had to raise alone after the early death of her husband, in a whole life of hard work and renunciations. She would have gave up her faith, like everything else for them - for fundamentalist believers like Slippery, this is enough for them to call her a "bad Christian without God in her heart", and see my good ol' grandma burning forever in a lake of fire.
Her and all the unbaptized or muslim innocent children dying for starvation (let's say if in the 10 millions of children who every year according to the FAO die for starvation, the 60% are muslim or unbaptized or so, it's 600 innocent children every hour sent in a lake of fire by a loving God )

But you know what? I don't care Because I'm 100% sure it isn't the case at all - otherwise I wouldn't be agnostic.
The Bible, which is said to be the "evidence" of all this, is supposed to having been written by the "smartest person of the universe", still when you read it where's the sensation of awe you should prove in reading something so smart, so timeless? A lot of it is mass-murdering, slavery, sexism, not to talk about the endless contradictions, the scientifical nonsenses, the commandments of lapidation.

So I can debate with all calm with Slippery and all the others who think me and my family and lots of "averagely-good" and innocent people will be sent, or are already, in a giant lake of fire forever (i mean, can you imagine it?) without getting offended by this and still trying to comprehend better each other.

Sorry for the harsh words. Best wishes to all. Take care.