National troops and mages vs SC and High Magics

[Cohen]

(I'm Italian ... excuse me for my bad english and many mistakes)

I and other players are trying games with Immobile pretenders (Map Move 0, still teleport however) and Humanlike pretenders (those with New Path Cost 10).
In my opinion these games are far more enhancing cause army counts more ... however it ends up as usual, with players usings super combatants, summons and so on ... and the Nation counts only in the early game, where you've to fight Indies to expand.

National armies and mages become almost useless ... so on where's the fun of the tactical differences beetween Nations? Are battle fought by singles or armies? Well ... I don't want to seek another game, cause I like Dom2 for many things I cannot find in other games (fatigue, magic sites search, nice Nations and so on) but I think these things will limit the games a lot ...

Troops become swordfodder and sieging mass ... stop.
Mages are overriden by magic summons, and so on ... where's going the peculiarity of a Nation ... his typical troops ... if we fight with Season summons, Kings or Queens of elements, and so on ?
Gold soon becomes inflated ... only to build forts and temples, and some labs ... because all is around magic gems ... and so on.
I'm not saying to remove these things ... only to make them more difficult to have (few people like difficult or v.difficult research ... and however it's only a matter of time usually ... but this could give more lifetime to armies and troops). This inflate too some scales (like productivity ... why should I produce troops if only 1 SC slaughter them all without any risk ... and I give him experience?).

Think on something a Jhoanne d'Arc, blessed by God (like a Prophet SC) can defeat English by herself ... or was she backed by huge armies of infantry, nobles and knights and so on?

Leaders are fine ... reclutable ones ...
Battle spellcasting is almost, except for some too powerful spells (like Breathe of Winter).

But I'll put more difficult Rituals and weaker summons ... or at least more expensive ... so gold, castles, production are still worthing.
And limit the SC ... perhaps limiting the magic items (like somewhat they goes conflicting by themselves) to less slots, or you've to put Magic Items of a lone element (ie ... I put the Boots of Quickness, ... so on I cannot put on the same char other items except those with a cost of only water gems, OR with a cost in water gems and other element, but Water Gems required are >= of the other element. This because different magic conflicts).
Limit pretender fighting abilities ... giving them a role of sages, arcane wizards, forecasters, and so on ...

Leave the hard work to battle mages and huge armies of national troops, raised by castles, gold and production!
Don't seek the best combo of magic item to give regen, ethereal, quickness and so on to your SC ... study tactics, plan how to cut withdrawal to enemy, build a strong economy to have bigger armies, add more hiding troops to ambush the enemy, and so on.

Well ... this is my opinion (I know this would change a lot the game), but I want to know yours.

[Teraswaerto]

If you set research to very difficult and magic site frequency low a mid-sized game will be over well before summons and SCs are the only forces worth fielding.

[Cohen]

The problem is in finding players willing to play with these settings.

And I love magic sites because now it's a strenght of a rainbow pretenders ... not fighting but an "explorer" of arcane sites ... who's seeking power ...

And some magic sites are nice because adds some troops you usually cannot recruit, but don't unbalance the game cause they'ren't overpowered ...

[atul]

Originally posted by Cohen:
National armies and mages become almost useless ... so on where's the fun of the tactical differences beetween Nations? Are battle fought by singles or armies?

I'm no expert by any means, but. Following all these discussions about SCs and how they can only be countered with ones alike them, I'm getting a feeling that there's a classical "When the only tool you've got is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail" problem at work. (Have to admit, though, that SCs are a bit like "When only tool you've got is a shotgun, every problem starts to look for an exit" solution)

I mean, if you believe every fight can be won only with SCs, then the game turns into a battle between individuals. Of course you're going to lose if you send masses of regular troops against something that's purposefully devised to slay masses of regular troops. Don't. All things (should) have a weakness or two.

Enemy using say arch devils? Send a couple of mages to freeze 'em dead. Something invulnerable to elements? Paralyze - soul slay - enslave mind. Invulnerable to elements, absurd MR? Acid/magma spells, other armour negaters. Use troops to keep those big guys busy while the mages do their work, if they use life drain put undead boneshield instead.

They start having small squads to help their big guys in battle? Kill the normies, rest will rout. They start to imitate you, putting forth number of mages protected by some screen? Mass Flight is your life-saver. Massed troops? There are more army bLasting spells than I remember out of hand.

You're bound to take losses, just make sure your opponent is hurt more.

Of course, I'm proven myself I'm absolutely lousy in crafting anything heavy-hitting, so have resorted to national mages and troops. Nearly all of the aforementioned has been achieved by one nation's national mages, so they do have uses. You just can't send them off everywhere without planning first a bit.

But then again, I'm sure there's some SC lurking even in my current MP just waiting to prove me wrong. Can't wait.

[Wendigo]

All the way through my MP games, I recruit national mages & troops every single turn.

[Cohen]

Put a limped, crippled unit in the rear, with hold and attack ... the rearmost you can.

Use some units to absorb spells, like LI ... and let SC doing the hard job.

What I mean is ... all the army should do the job, not army takes hits and deceives enemy spells, and SC slaughter all the things.

And with magic items you can be invulnerable to almost all things ... perhaps some death magic spells ...

_________________________________
Wendingo, you'll find when you start wars with other humans, and not Indies, that soon your troops will be slaughtered and become swordfodder to cover big monsters.

[ April 25, 2004, 10:14: Message edited by: Cohen ]

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Cohen:

Wendingo, you'll find when you start wars with other humans, and not Indies, that soon your troops will be slaughtered and become swordfodder to cover big monsters.

Only if I field them as fodder, which is not usually the case.

I guess our MP experiences differ, I have yet to face a 'big moster' that couldn't be killed. And when it comes to duelling, the right combination of mages+troops+SCs will beat lone/Groups of SCs any day.

[Cohen]

Troops always comes along with SC, but not ordinary troops, but summons ...

[Vynd]

When it comes to summoned monsters, perhaps part of the problem here is that so few of the summoned creatures require upkeep or supplies. Without upkeep or supplies to worry about, the only limit to the amount of magical troops you can summon is your gem income and the availability of mages.

What if summoned units required an upkeep in gems? While we're at it, how about the same for global and long-Lasting local enchantments? That would make it much more difficult to use summoned monsters as the core of your armies.


On the topic of Super Combatants, I don't have enough MP experience yet to know how bad it really is out there. But from what I read on this forum, when people are complaining about SCs being too powerful, what they are really talking about always seems to be Vampire Queens. So is this really just an aspect of the VQ issue? Or is she just the worst offender?

[Endoperez]

I thought you were worried about the fact that national troops and mages became worthless in the endgame. I got that victory with Caelum. I also had access to some SCs, but I thought that this more "basic" army would be better in this case. I posted it as an example of what a normal army with national mages can do.

My frontline consisted of Living Statues, and they were even slower than I had expected. My Mammoths got stuck behind them instead of going for a trampling trip. It seems that (even) more "basic" frontline would have been better. But as I said I was Caelum, I didn't have Temple Guards to hold the frontline and my Iceclads had better things to do... In my games, my weak Caelians have many uses. Flying in melee to get killed by Ulmians is not one of them. Mages are one of the strengths of Caelum. Why would I have to not use them? There are better nations for playing with strong melee armies. Ulm, Steel theme of Pangaea, Jotunheim for those fond of elite armies, Abysia has heavy infantry although their mages are a major power for them.


You have told that you dislike the current system where proper SCs can destroy whole armies, and mages and magic are best ways to get rid of them. What would you propose as a way of getting rid of SCs, then?

Big armies? What use would SCs be then? Your army would have to take the first punch and if they routed, your SC would die soon after. SCs woudln't have any role left, as they wouldn't be able to kill armies all alone and they couldn't even change the tide of battle, as the basic armies would decide that, too.
Many physically stronger pretenders would lose much of their interest, as putting them to the front line can get them useless even now when they potentially can kill whole armies.

Also, are you sure you have tried all the mundane ways of killing strong units? X-bows work against units with high protection in general, and Wraith Sword leaves most creatures without shield. Undead frontline distracts him and renders his lifedraining worthless while your x-bows make some new holes through him... And given enough crossbows even if he gets his life back he will eventually die. Also, remember the afflictions! Afflictions and fatique are the two things that will take down any SC. And either one is enough!

[ April 25, 2004, 15:37: Message edited by: Endoperez ]