eXperience: the 5h X

[TacticDragon]

"eXperience: the 5h X" is a catch phrase used for advertising the new Master of Orion 3, but the discussion I am starting here goes beyond just MOO3 and will attempt to address the gaming concept in general, and how to implement more challenge into SE4 specifically.

This thread was actually started under the topic "Your History With SEIV", if you want more background info. For convenience, I will quote myself here:

"It certainly is a challenge for a game designer to create a good gaming experience. Ideally, a game should not have a preset difficulty level. Rather, the game should adapt the difficulty as the campaign unfolds.

Think about this imaginary situation: you have struggled in a SE4 game and overcome all the challenges the AI has thrown at you. You know you have won the game, and what is left of it is only hours of boring "insect crushing" of the Last enemies, as you lazily finish to research the Last technologies, and you spend more time micromanaging your 200 colonies than doing exciting stuff...

Sounds boring? It is... But, suddenly, out of nowhere, a warp point from another galaxy appears and an alien invasion fleet strikes your empire with fiery destructive force... What are you going to do? Sounds cool? It would be... This is an example of how the game decides that you must be bored and it gives you a new challenge. Unfortunately, such a game is yet to be invented. Just think about it..."

I didn't really think about implementing such a thing into a SE4 Mod but some of you actually took it seriously, and now I think "why not?". I just gave the situation as an example of a new challenge in the "boring phase" of most strategy games. But let's take a closer look; mac5732 mentioned we could actually implement it.

For those of you familiar with MOO2, such a challenge would be similar to the appearance of the Antareans (only we'd need to make them much, much, tougher than in MOO2). So let's call the invading race "Antareans" for convenience. I am not sure how to implement them into SE4 because I haven't tried to "mod" the game at all yet. But here are a few ideas that I hope will kick-start the discussion:

1) If we make it into a scenario, the Antareans could start the game confined in a system with no warp points. Then their AI would give them some kind of incentive to research "warp point technology". Timing would be essential here.

2) Obviously, they would need some kind of superiority: in numbers, in technology, or both. The technology could be unique, and should be devastating. In fact, their appearance should be devastating enough to challenge the whole outcome of the game.

3) One problem I see is the lack of surprise: if one knows the Antareans are coming, one can prepare for it... This is not good.

4) So maybe there should be other challenges too. How about "space monsters" or internal revolts, or enemy alliances to face the player's empire, or a combination of these? Natural catastrophes? Some of these already exist but a) with a low magnitude and b) they are not necessarily triggered during the "boring phase"...

5) How about this: the "Antareans" are a race that cannot be challenged by conventional weapons (or only in a very limited way), requiring the discovery of a new technology tree, with prerequisites that change from game to game (so it is harder to "prepare" for the attack). Maybe the prerequisite is found in the ruins in the Anatarean home system (on a planet they cannot colonize). Or maybe the ruins are somewhere else. Maybe the prerequisites should be scattered around the galaxy, and gathering them all would require a mix of exploration/diplomacy/conquest (since some of the ruins will be found by other races before you).

[Spyder]

I think that, generally speaking, boring-time hits at about the same time you hit MEE. At that point, you basically KNOW you'll win, its just a matter of time as you blow away/subjugate all the other races.

So....

Our 5th X...our Anti-Boredom schemes...should kick in somewhere around that time.

Now, to make this unpredictible, there must be a wide variety of things that can happen. All of them must have a serious enough impact so that it jeaopardizes the whole game when it does happen.

One thing that can happen is Civil War (as described in another thread). Where half of the MEE empire starts it's own empire.

The antareans is another interesting idea. They would come in at the edge of the system in one of the MEE Empire's systems and claim it and assimilate it instantly. This would be their starting base system. From here they would start building ships & launching attacks on everyone and everything.

It is important that they be VERY strong. To achieve this you would have to grant them some extraordinary powers...equivalent to a 5k race in a 2k game...with a level 5 bonus. You WANT them to proliferate quickly and to be able to produce & maintain a viable fleet unless defeated by a massive onslaught. If you were to grant them a special racial tech that made them very difficult to defeat (not Impossible to defeat), then you'd have to have a balancing effect of the players being able to research SOMETHING that would work. One way to do this is to add to the various ruins out there Unknown Techs. Unknow Tech 1 thru 5 would be used to produce Antarean Tech. Through Antarean tech you get Antarean Sheilds, Weapons, Sensors. From each of those you can break out how ever you like.

Each of the Unknown Techs would be on random Ruins planets and you would not be able to research them unless the Antareans showed up (NOW we know what that is!). You would have to research all 5, or otherwise gain that research to achieve Antarean Tech. This means you'd have to gain at least one of the techs, and probably several of them, from other Empires.

More ideas as I cogitate on this

[Spyder]

Another idea that comes from Civilization (The Boardgame) along with the Civil War idea is the Barbarian Hordes.

In Civilization this is a 5th level calamity. Its basic premise is that the hordes are only looting & pillaging....and they loot & pillage until their resources are exhausted.

In SEIV, this would be an Antarean-like race that appeared at the edge of the galaxy in the MEE Empire's area, with a MASSIVE fleet of Modern ships and began to completely wipe anyone and anything in their path. Their path would be randomly determined. After they wiped a system, they would randomly choose a wormhole, or, just make a wormhole to where they want to go if there were no wormholes. They would continue until wiped out.

I would start them with a total fleet that was the SUM of ALL THE SHIPS IN THE GALAXY (maybe 50%). The edge that the player would have is that he can make more ships and the Barbarians cannot. He can also research whereas the Barbarians are stuck with what they came with.

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: Spyder ]

[mac5732]

1st I didn't mean in my other post that this can be done, only that I thought it could be implemented similiar to what has already been accomplished by the vets/modders in relation to new or modified races. Do to hard code changes in programing this addition would have to use what already is available, therefore we have to come up with ways that could be implemented without hard code changes. Those would have to be done by Aaron to the game itself.

Since new races/traits have been modified already another new race could be possible. As to the randomness or new abilities, we would have to ck with the modders on this as I'm not sure if we could add random factor/s like those that are being discussed.

I think that these ideas would be great additions to the game, IF they could be done without hard coding changes, otherwise it would be up to MM.

I like the ideas of the xenophobic race, I believe something similiar was discussed way back when during the time SJ was designing his P/N mod.

The only problem with having a race in an unattached system would be that it could be defended against, Unless, they could open a wormhole anywhere for any or at least a longer distance. This way you would not know or could guess where they would make their breakout. I like the idea of a race showing up from out system and attacking taking over system. I would suggest that they come in in more then 1 fleet. I would suggest several fleets attacking several different parts of the map and taking over several systems. this could be a random turn situation so you don't know when they would all come in. If only 1 fleet came in, you could mass you ships for 1 huge battle and you would have the advantage. This way your hit in more then one place, which in turn splits up your fleets and you have to decide where to make a stand, you can't defend everywhere at the same time, which would give the enemy time to invade, and begin their own builds, research etc.

just some ideas mac

[Menschenfresser]

Hmmm...
What about simply having a secondary effect of the MEE being that one race (not human) stumbles across some ultimate technology.

It would give them some of the following if not all and it could be random as to what they get so the human player doesn't know what he'll be up against when it happens. I personally would suggest having it random, but having several of these listed:
1) Unlimited resources. (wouldn't be too hard...just make a new mineral/organic/radio extractor that mines 100000 per turn....this would work if the AI upgrades facilities, which I am not sure of.)
2) Gigantic hull designs.
3) These super components and hull cost virtually nothing, so they can build 50 in no time.
4) Super mega death weapons. (Don't know exactly what this would be.
5) A thick small shield tech that makes fighters a greater problem to erradicate.
6) A combat and defense component making their ships extremely hard to hit.
7) Space yards which can construct 10000 resources in a turn.
....ad nauseum......

I am not completely sure it is possible to mod in more MEE like events, but if that is possible then the rest certainly is. It would only take some serious detail changes to the AI design files so they actually use the new tech in no matter what form it comes in.

I see it may be impossible to radomize the actual rewards for the AI or who it goes to, but with careful consideration what is chosen to implement could be balanced.

Imagine having gone through a WP several turns ago and just seeing the remnants of an empire you have been crushing for a decade, when all of a sudden, a terror fleet of yours reenters the AI's system on a routine misson of death and solar rape, and there, hovering over a star, are 75 warships weighing in at 2500k a piece, which the AI can spit out at the rate of one every turn or two.

And think then about the unlimited resource addition. Say the empire which has gained this tech is on the other end of the galaxy. All the other AI empires they are allied with in at least a tech swap will suddenly have near unlimited resources through trade. Furthertheless, destroying their planets won't do much to hinder their mining ability...needing only two of each facility to produce what your spralling empire is producing.

Or there could even be multiple levels of MEE tech.

Although all this sounds like there would definitely be hard coding involved.

[mac5732]

I read Capnq's post in history thread, Random factor is a hardcode change. So.. have to come up with something else, how about if it is possible to have a computer player be set to enter the game upon a specific game turn or after a specific event happens, etc, or would this to fall into the random factor? this would take something away from the idea but maybe its something to be looked at and worked off of. Something like AI player X enters on game turn 500 or player x enters after 70% of planets or certqain types of planets are populated??????

just some ideas mac

just some ideas mac

[mac5732]

Ship size would be possible I would think under current system. We alread have a base-ship, which in non-modded original Version the Ai never uses. How about if we just upgrade the current basehip to where that particular AI player starts with it, lower the cost for building, maintenance, increase capacity, defense, etc. They could start with both DN's and Upgraded base ships, probably some of the other smaller types and ftrs as well, as for weapons, couldn't we take some of the current ones and increase their ranges, damage,

Basically, what I mean is, couldn't we just take what we have and modify, (ships, weapons, etc) for only that particular race? We could even give them new names etc, This would be the only race that would have these capabilities, therefore, we could still use current weapons, tech against them, but they would be bigger, stronger and do more damage when they hit or attack but not undefeatable.

If this is all possible, then they hardest part would be as to how this race would enter into the game. Random factors as long as it needs to be hard coded is out, therefore......??

just some ideas mac

[Spyder]

I thought we were talking about the evolution of the game to include the 5th X. I am specifically targetting Space Empires V ideas

The idea is to provide some extra spice to the game at the point where it seems to lag. In the case of SEIV, it lags when you reach MEE. So, MEE status is an event that can be used to trigger something that adds spice to a game that has begun to lag. In addition, the event needs variety or it can be defended against. For instance, in the Civil War Event, the player would know that inside the next xxx turns, half of his empire would secede, he could adjust production, storage, etc so that he would be able to choose an optimum set of planets to retain. If the player knew that Barbarian Hordes were imminent, he could stockpile partially built ships and release them when the Hordes landed. However, if he knew one of those were going to hit, but not when or which...then, it'd be much more difficult prepare for.

The idea is that its a random calamity that is potentially disasterous and that is targetted at the MEE Empire. This could actually save the PLAYER if one of the AI's got way ahead of him.

The Barbarian Hordes is a particularly good idea because: 1) It will eventually run out of ships and end the disaster...usually before wiping anyone out; 2) While it starts in the middle of the MEE Empire, it doesn't necessarily have to stay there; 3) It is not unsurpassable technologically and therefore can be beaten back.

The Civil War idea could be a bad idea unless you gave him a chance to prevent it from happening. Perhaps you could send a message to him saying "You have reached MEE status. Your Empire is in unrest. You must quell the unrest or suffer a Civil War." Quelling the unrest would require ships in every system....say a number equal to the number of colonized planets & mooons. You would have a time period to achieve this and if you failed, then you would lose half of the systems (you'd get to choose which ones you get to keep) that did not have the appropriate number of ships in orbit. If you DID achieve the goal, then you'd have to maintain this navy in each system you occupied, or go into a flux state where you have so many turns to cover the unrest.

[Phoenix-D]

If you're willing to do pre-game set up, there is a way to make "disasters", races entering via newly opened WPs, and such.

Take one race, create a new racial tech. Give this tech extremely overpowered, cheap components, and impenitrable cloaking. Give it a 1 MP engine.

Now, you set things up by creating the game and "idling" all the other empires while the dummy empire's ships are moved in position. What you need to do is decided when you want your "even" to occur; the event can be anything a standard empire can accomplish. Move the dummy ships that number of spaces away from the target, and give them orders.

Once everything is in place, nuke the dummy's colonies. The ships will contiue on their merry way and fire your events. This works best with exploding stars..

Phoenix-D

[jimbob]

Cool,

Spyder, it's good to see someone else has played Civ (the board game). The barbarian hordes idea is a great one, I'd love to see that happen as a MEE random event.
Is it possible to have "first place player has XX times more points than second place player" as a trigger for the release of the hordes? Is it possible to set up the hordes so that they only attack the first place player (regardless of who it ends up being?)

The civil war ideas are good. While a warning may be good to give the player a chance to get ships back to his home systems, I think that he/she should lose _all_ planets that they didn't get ships back to in time. It reminds me of the Babalonian seige of Jerusalem, which lifted suddenly because the army had to return home to quell rebellions. If memory serves, I don't think they got back in time either!

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: jimbob ]