Wanted: Online Pretender Database

[silhouette]

Quote from Chazar in another thread:

Another key is to setup a sensible strategy AT PRETENDER DESIGN. [...] There are many nation specific threads which discuss pretender design and the idea behind it. Just search for nation names...
(its really a shame that there is no canonical set of pretender templates with a short description revealing the idea behind them!!!)

I see comments like this a lot, so let's formalize a discussion and do something. Here is what I think we need, an Online/Web Pretender Database.

Basic requirements:

• Web interface to SQL database
• Some sort of login/userid system
• Uploader enters all the parameters for pretender/nation design
• Uploader describes the intended plan, strategy, playstyle (bless usage, research targets, expansion plans, mods used, etc)
• Searchable with a simple interface (like the Grimoire for spells), e.g. all Wyrms with Astral > 1, or R'lyeh with Luck 3, etc.

Improvements:

• Users can directly upload newlords files, and the server parses them directly into the database. This would require some reverse engineering or some help with file format or headers from the developers.
• Users can download a pretender as a newlord file to start a game directly
• Allow others to vote/rate submitted pretenders, and have a rating which can be part of search criteria
• Allow others to add 'comments': their analysis of the build, did it work in their games, advice for use or tweaks to improve
• Consistency checks for point totals / handles common mods
• Add Dom3 compatability
• Shared login with a phpBB or some forum, to keep the trash talk out of pretender comment fields

I can see a lot of potential. It's great for starting users, so they can see example builds and reasons for choices. Even experienced players probably have nations they don't seem successful with, so this can give insight in how others play them successfully. It can be used for multiplayer games (random nations, you will be assigned a pretender design from the database rated 6 out of 9 or better). It can capture some of the lessons learned from AARs ("I planned to expand fast using mercenaries, but these scales don't guarantee enough income..."), etc.

It seems like a pretty straightforward job for someone with some php and sql experience. What would you like to see in such a database, and who can we talk into taking a run at making it?

Sill

[Edi]

I'm the one you want to talk to about making a database, as I'm the one who authored the Dominions 2 Unit DB, the Weapons and Armor DB and the current incarnation of the magic site DB. Those were all done in Excel, so they're basically just spreadsheet references.

I'm going to make a Dom3 DB and that one will be in SQL and could be adapted for what you have in mind. The snag is that since it is going to be a generic units/weapons/armor/nations db, it is going to be pretty large and detailed, rather than just the pretenders, and it sure as hell is not going to incorporate scales, dominion points or magic level point costs as such.

Depending on how detailed the IW guys want a user accessible DB to be, they may let me see the source code for units or parts of the code that will help in designing DB.

So it'd be up to someone else to do the frontend for a program that designs pretenders, but I don't think IW will give anyone enough support to sytart messing with the file formats. It'll really be enough if the frontend allows for pretender design and outputs a report to a text file or similar where you can reference it later. Won't be much trouble then implementing it in Dom3. Plus we don't know what sorts of pretender management features Dom3 may or may not contain, but I know some of those were on the user request lists. The beta testers might know something, but they won't be talking is my guess. Not yet anyway.

Edi

[Gandalf Parker]

I could host with all of the things suggested, but I think thats abit much. A really nice database could be done easier as a wiki. That way its an online interface which could link to a persons pretender design by nation, or by the form selected, or by something like the magic chosen. Or really any feature.

But Id rather see something like this project completed first.
14 May 2004 - Starter Help
No one nibbled on my project to duplicate the old Dom1 starter god files like at using the wayback machine so I may just muddle thru it on my own. Eventually I should have a downloadable set of gods, a starter game with all the nations, and the same game at various stages (turn 10, turn 100). Plus of course an online explanation. The project so far is in
Starter Files


I think some fun newbie suggested gods and settings would move abit quicker than trying to get someone to give up their best designs. IMHO

[Edi]

My idea of the DB is to have something similar to the Dom2 Unit DB, but in a relational DB format. That way the users don't really need to look at the actual DB tables but will be using premade queries to fetch what they need from the DB. If somebody wants to make large scale mods, they can model what things look like by copying the DB and tweaking whatever values they wish and getting the results instantly without needing to fire up the game.

I can construct the DB all right, but designing the queries and their presentation smartly is something I will definitely need help with.

Edi

[Horst F. JENS]

i would be glad to help on this project.

[Edi]

We can get back to that once the DB starts getting under way. I already have a pretty good idea of what I want to put in it and how, it's the queries that will be the biggest problem and they'll only need to be done after the DB is up and running.

I also expect to get help from Kaljamaha, who thanks to his new job will have quite a bit of direct experience with SQL by the end of summer.

But if it's about hosting stuff or making frontends and whatnot, that kind of thing will be most welcome.

Edi

[silhouette]

Edi, your databases are really helpful and I have used them a lot. However, I don't see how the use model for your databases and a pretender database are very similar. My impression is that yours will be more static data like documentation, being updated if additions are found or with new schemas or new categories of data. I imagine a pretender database might start small and continue to add value as it grows as a more dynamic thing, and a place for different opinion and style to be expressed, not just the game facts. It probably would be over the line to make a full pretender-editor interface, and my preference is still to just use uploading of newlords files. When someone finishes a good game, they can just go to a website, click Upload and select their "abyssia.2h", put in a few comments, and done. Maybe I am not visualizing your plans as you are.


Gandalf, hi, thanks for your response and the generous hosting offer. I think a wiki could be a good way to capture commentary and discussion on such a website. I remember I have looked at your projects page before when using your random maps, and the starter files one already has the full set of pretender files already? So what you would like is an all-human game setup on Ornaia or somesuch, with some commentary and results file every X turns or so?

Also, I would be really glad if we "only" had people submit a couple dozen suggested newbie gods and settings, with some commentary! I guess after someone has used 'one of their best designs' in a full MP game, almost every aspect has been found out anyway. Remember things like that supercombatant contest held last year? Where can those designs be seen and downloaded? Nowhere, just the replays probably... so put them in the database. Make it an annual thing, like a corewar tournament. Make it easier than having to remember and say, "I think I used an A4W2E3S7D3 Ghost king with high Magic scales and wiz. tower, or something like that", in a forum.

Probably you also will appreciate one of the big advantages to having an online pret. database: SP games can be more exciting! We can make an option to download a random pretender entry matching some critera, and these can be used to start SP games with. I think playing the AI when it uses good player-designed pretenders is more challenging than the computer generated ones. I have tried making my own sets of gods to pick from, but it can take a lot of extra work.


I can also come up with hosting space and mysql space for it, but I am no web content creation expert, and I can't make much time available to set things up. After spending 12hr days at work programming, the thought of coming home and committing to write more code just makes me ill. Surely there are some gurus out there who would like to try and whip up something?

Maybe we are too close to a D3 release and everyone is just in a holding pattern waiting to see what comes. I'm guessing (hoping?) there will be options to build and save pretenders locally in D3, but I don't know if that will make it more or less likely for people to participate in sharing.


Thanks for your responses and suggestions,

Sill

[Agrajag]

I've reread this thread and given it some thought, and I think that what you are suggesting can be easily done even by someone with my experience (a bit of ASP and Access, what they I was taught in the 10th grade).
It obviously won't be anything complex, but setting up a simple DB with options to upload information into predesigned fields and adding simple queries is actually quite simple.
IMO the tough parts are:
1) Checking for validity of information. I don't know how it will be even remotely possible to check that a submitted pretender is even possible ingame.
2) Moderating the DB. If there will be too many people, or just one troll, it might get really hard to moderate the DB.
3) Getting people to upload their pretender designs. Some people are too lazy, some people won't submit anything until they think the DB is serious (vicious cycle!), and some people want to keep their design secret for MP supremecy.
4) Getting a decent host. With my knowledge and resources for example, I'm limited to sites like DomainDLX or Somee, which offer free ASP hosting with limited bandwidth and annoying advertisements and requierments.

If no one better steps up, I guess I can code a very basic online DB in ASP and upload it to some free host like DomainDLX, but with that kind of design I don't think it will be very popular.
Or in any way better than a wiki (maybe easier to search I guess...) or just long forum thread with everyone's pretender designs (mine might load faster, because you wouldn't have to load the whole thing at once. But with crappy hosting, I doubt it.)

[Edi]

If you want to use it just to upload the .2h files, then my concepts indeed won't help much. What I was getting at was that if a frontend is constructed that uses the game facts to calculate the point cost for a pretender and saves the info to a separate table where anybody can access it and use it to replicate the pretender design on their own computer. No need to upload or download the actual files.

That one would be really simple, as you only need to display dominion strength, scales, magic, pretender name/ID and possibly nation for it. You don't need to list the special abilities, stats or anything else from the greater DB. The pretender designs table could also be browsed with a rather simple query page where you select the pretender from a dropdown menu and select one or two magics and the level desired for them. Or by nation and you'll get a list of the existing entries in that table.

My concept of this online pretender DB is that it can be added later as an additional functional block that is or at least can be independent of the larger DB (though then you'd need a different, more complex sort of frontend to use it.

Doesn't mean it's the only correct way of doing it, but for Dom3 I think it is perhaps the one that requires least effort once the big DB is up. The Pretender DB as you envision it is a completely tangential interest for me, I've nothing invested in the idea nor do I personally have much use for it.

Edi

[Agrajag]

I know. I just responded to silhouette's vision of the DB, which seems to me to be very different from yours.