Another idea that struck me while writing an AAR.

[BigJMoney]

Here is another idea that seems so appropriate to me for Dominions. Like the "dominion flipping" idea, this one struck me while I was writing an AAR, and it is mostly thematic.

A pretender should have an effect on the unrest of a province. I'm not saying it should be a large effect, but it only makes sense that when the pretender is walking among his people, their morale would increase. Even if it's a god who is evil and has turmoil scales, he is still among his fanatical worshippers, and he has the power to break their wills better than a mortal army could.

So, how would this be balanced? The good thing is that there is nothing to balance it against. It applies to all players. However, should it be a set factor, or should the god's dominion strength be tied to it? How about the amount of unrest that decreases is equal to the god's base dominion strength (chosen at game start) plus the current level of dominion in the province?

=$= Big J Money =$=

PS -- Why did I have to wait until Dom3 came out before writing my first AAR?!

[Arralen]

10% more taxes from the provinces the pretender is in will have the same effect.

And pretenders which like turmoil shouldn't spread order. So order would get out on top again.

[BigJMoney]

Nah, nah, nah. I didn't say "spread order", I said decrease some unrest in his current province per turn. That's not the same thing by any margin. In fact, not only is it completely contrary in spirit to what I was proposing, I even made a statement regarding that specific concern.

"Even if it's a god who is evil and has turmoil scales, he is still among his fanatical worshippers, and he has the power to break their [rebellion] better than a mortal army could."

If I were proposing that a god of turmoil ought to spread order, I'd be a real idiot, now wouldn't I? Please don't change my words, or people will not even know how to discuss my idea!

Also, 10% more taxes in the same province would not, in spirit, be what I was proposing. I didn't say a god walks into a province and all of a sudden the tax collecters work harder (although that might happen too, hehe). I said when a god walks into a proviince, the trouble makers both quake in fear and fall down in worship, and begin to dissipate. It's not the monetary effect that matters, but the little thematic detail. I think it's the kind of detail that would fit the personality of the game. Is that any clearer? I do not always communicate my ideas very well.

=$=

[Arralen]

I think I understood what your ideas where - but that's not how it works out in the game

What will a player do if his pretenders quells a certain amount of unrest in a province each turn? He'll crank up the taxes without needing to patrol (and lose some pop that way). Therefore it would be easier to simply let the province generate 10% more gold ... .

Doesn't very high turmoil scale result in 0..5 points of "base unrest" any more? Therefore, if you pretender quells unrest, he is in fact spreading order .. or am I maybe mixing something up from older versions of Dominions ???

[Endoperez]

In Dom:PPP, Order decreased and Turmoil increased unrest. The end effect was that the tax rate had to be fiddled with. Decreasing unrest, especially if it only affected one province, and ESPECIALLY thanks to the new tax manager, would result in more gold.

[Fate]

I think there is a simple comprimise. What if the pretender got a basic patrol bonus? Like BigJMoney said, if your god said "drop your weapons and go home" you would be a lot more likely to do so than if some minion told you that.

On the other hand, it would disturb game balance a tad. A nation with great scales and a throw-away pretender (though it seems like that might not exist so much anymore, seeing as there are no themes or castles to spend money on anymore) could continually patrol their home province and crank the taxes up real high, whereas a nation with an SC or site-searching or researching pretender wouldn't be able to do the same. Admittedly, it could be balanced, but that would take some time.

[BigJMoney]

Arralen said:
What will a player do if his pretenders quells a certain amount of unrest in a province each turn? He'll crank up the taxes without needing to patrol (and lose some pop that way).

I think balance-wise one of my points was that since everyone has the ability to do this, it's not unbalanced. It's simply another strategic choice to make. Do you leave your pretender at home to keep the people happy and research magic, or do you take him out into combat to spread dominion far, and quell the rebellions there? You do bring up a good point, however. He should not be killing the people, he should be preventing the rebellion, and turning the current rebels peaceful. So, what we're really looking at is a decrease in unrest without a decrease in population.

Also, I don't know exactly how fast 200% taxes increases unrest, but just so everyone knows, I can agree that it would be silly to have a pretender who could quell unrest that effectively.

Arralen said:
Therefore it would be easier to simply let the province generate 10% more gold ... .

Because this doesn't have the same meaning. This does not decrease rebellion. If you are working your people hard, let's just say at 110% taxes, then the pretender's presence ought to calm/force the people into submission. This situation is much more preferable than an invisible number the player will never ever see, and probably not even know about! Let's compare the two in detail, assuming they both end in the same result:

My idea: A pretender with a Dominion strength of X has the capability to sit in a province and prevent an amount of unrest equal to that generated by having taxes set to 110%.
Application: You set the taxes to 110%, and your people begin to rebel. You send the ol' pretender in there and it stops. Maybe even use an army to patrol to get rid of the few that remain. Tell the pretender to leave, and what happens? The people go nuts again, but you still make the money. Everything makes sense.

Your idea: A pretender with a dominion strength of X raises the money gained by the province he is in by 10%.
Application: You send a pretender to a province. You get more money. Tell him to leave, and you get less money. Why even add this to the game?? It's redundant!

That is a huge difference! If you can't see it, then you don't understand my point, which is the aspect of the pretender and the effect of his presence on the people. It's like telling some guy that asking his children for $20 is the same as asking a friend. He'd get the exact same money, so what's the big deal? Why not just ask your kids for money? I appreciate the fact that you are approaching this from a pure gameplay perspective, but I also reject it. One of the reasons Dominions is such an enjoyable game is because of its attention to theme and details; why things happen the way they do. There are probably dozens more ways gameplay analysis could streamline dominions to make it less micro work, but then it would lose its personality.

Arralen said:
Doesn't very high turmoil scale result in 0..5 points of "base unrest" any more? Therefore, if you pretender quells unrest, he is in fact spreading order .. or am I maybe mixing something up from older versions of Dominions ???

I don't appreciate faulty logic. Quelling unrest is not equivalent to spreading order. Spreading order involves: a direct increase in taxed income, (maybe) an increase in order, and a decrease in the chance of random events. You need to meet all the criteria to qualify as "spreading order". Saying that quelling unrest is the same as spreading order is like saying an acorn is equal to a pine cone because it grows on trees.

At this point it really seems you are trying to kill the idea for no other reason than to be correct about what constitutes better gameplay. So what? It's not like this idea adds micro to the game. All you have to do is play with the tax rate to see how high you can get it with the pretender in town. Either that, or maybe you blood hunt in your home province with no worries, because the fantaical people will tolerate more when they are around their mighty god.

=$=

[Ballbarian]

A pretender should have an effect on the unrest of a province. I'm not saying it should be a large effect, but it only makes sense that when the pretender is walking among his people, their morale would increase. Even if it's a god who is evil and has turmoil scales, he is still among his fanatical worshippers, and he has the power to break their wills better than a mortal army could.

I like this idea. I don't see it as unbalancing or messing up scales since it can only ever affect a single province, not the god's entire dominion. A subtle shift of focus giving pretender gods slightly more influence by their mere presence in a province. On the other hand, what a dilemma. Do I stay safely in my fortress leveraging my god's research points, or move him to the province next door where a bad event has caused incredibly high unrest. Sure, I could send my death squads in and slaughter the unruly populace, but that hurts my income in the long run...

[Graeme Dice]

BigJMoney said:
Let's compare the two in detail, assuming they both end in the same result:

If they both provide the same result, then you should build your interface around the one that removes micromanagement. Thus, making the pretender boost income automatically would be the one you choose.

My idea: A pretender with a Dominion strength of X has the capability to sit in a province and prevent an amount of unrest equal to that generated by having taxes set to 110%.
Application: You set the taxes to 110%, and your people begin to rebel. You send the ol' pretender in there and it stops. Maybe even use an army to patrol to get rid of the few that remain. Tell the pretender to leave, and what happens? The people go nuts again, but you still make the money. Everything makes sense.

Except that what actually happens when people are playing the game is that you will just have to change the tax levels around in every single province as the pretender moves around. There's nothing strategic about this, it's just pointless micromanagement since you will never get unrest unless you forget to change the taxes.

Your idea: A pretender with a dominion strength of X raises the money gained by the province he is in by 10%.
Application: You send a pretender to a province. You get more money. Tell him to leave, and you get less money. Why even add this to the game?? It's redundant!

It has exactly the same effect as your suggestion, yet it has absolutely no micromanagement. Thus, it's the far superior choice.

There are probably dozens more ways gameplay analysis could streamline dominions to make it less micro work, but then it would lose its personality.

Then perhaps you should go back and play Dominions I, since you seem to think that micromanaging your taxes is such a wonderful piece of gameplay. Micromanagement is nnot good gameplay. Micromanagement is what happens when you are required to manually adjust things that should be automated because the optimal decision is obvious.

At this point it really seems you are trying to kill the idea for no other reason than to be correct about what constitutes better gameplay. So what? It's not like this idea adds micro to the game. All you have to do is play with the tax rate to see how high you can get it with the pretender in town.

Why don't you go and re-read what you just wrote here, because you've just directly contradicted yourself. First you claim that your suggestion wouldn't add micromanagement. This is laughable, since it clearly requires you to adjust the tax rate to take advantage of the pretender's movement. Then you tell us that you have to play with the tax rate. Note that playing with the tax rate is micromanagement. Thus, you've directly contradicted yourself.

[PDF]

A pretender spreads dominion, why in hell should he spread un-unrest as if he were a bunch of patrollers ?
Note that as he spread dominion he push the province he's in towards his scales. That seems much more fitting than auto-killing of brigands ...