Great Fun with Spring and Autumn - and one minor question

[tinkthank]

I have been having such great fun with Spring and Autumn. I would be curious to know whether you experience people feel what I am doing to be either unorthodox, standard fare, wise or silly, or otherwise not worth commenting.

I have always wanted to try S&A, but had no success up till now. I had used the Jade Emperor, who is even better under 2.08, but without much success, then tried an Oracle quite a bit, but with only mediocre fun, and now I am going with...

The great Earth Mother. She compliments everything so well.
4 points in earth, 4 in Nature. Not the most variable, but....
1 Turmoil
2 Luck
2 Growth
2 Magic
6 Dominion

I find I have enough money with 2 growth, and this keeps the money coming in. I dont require resources quite so much, since I am going heavy magic. I almost never get the stronger 18 res. troops, but rely mostly on the more mobile 2-map-move infantry and bowmen.

The Mother helps well in early expansions when no mercs are available, and can search for much needed earth gems until I get a Mot5E or a CM with an earth pick.

I go for construction and alteration asap, with enchantment next and evocation when I can.

Wind guide, ah the sound of the wind in the autumn leaves.
Flaming arrows + wind guide is perfect harmony.
Arrow fend is pleasing to my eyes.
Antimagic is celestial peace.

With my pretender setup, I usually cast Gift of Health as soon as possible, and keep her within dominion bounds to clean up indy provinces while my troops are out on the front lines.
With Gift of Health and an even moderate (2-4) dominion, Su Su has well over 500 HP, regenerates 50+ HP per turn, and -- of course I give her nice items too.
Also, no danger of Duels or any such stuff, as one might expect of a T'ien Chi pretender.

The big earth skills allow me not only to cast Forge of Ancients, but until that is up, she can get my forging economy started by making the first Dwarven Hammer and a pair of Earth boots for my Mot5E and/or lucky Earthen Celestial.
He then makes a few Slave Matrixes when the time is ripe, equips a few MotD with them, and it is Arrow Heaven.

It is a lot of fun, but I am wondering if I have just gotten lucky so far with my gem finding. I have spent a *lot* of time invested in finding, but I have also found some great sites too.

Also wondering what you experienced people think when people catch a whiff of what I am doing. My magic economy is very strong, but when an Air opponent goes for Storm summoners or Staff of Storms, I am unsure how to counter. I mostly go for fast, mobile troops, and I wonder if it would be too late to switch. What counter-counter do I have open to me? (This question could also be posed to a Man archer player -- what do you do against Storm Users?)

Also, I find myself almost never getting other commanders than magic Users, just not found a use for them. Well ok there is only 1 in S&A, and he looks so neat, but.... I suppose this is a general question: Why get a commander who can just hack and slash when you can get a spellcaster who can also search, research, preach, etc. when not fighting? (Aside from the usually higher leadership skills.)

Well thanks for listening to me and thanks in advance for the friendly advice.

[Wauthan]

Errh... I can't answer your first question since you don't mention how many gemsites you found or what site frequence your game is running.

I'm sad to say that a skilled opponent will suspect your archer strategy very early. The full strength of T'ien Ch'i is not achived if you would not be using those composite bows. But the staff of storms is not likely unless you face a faction with easy access to air magic. It's still possible but in the early game you will propably meet a determined onslaught of enemy archers or flying units instead.

Fast mobile armies are great as long as you keep them on the move. In this game it's never to late to change tactics as long as you keep this change in the plans. Select a favorite tough as nails summoned monster and keep a force of researchers and heaps of appropriate gems ready for massrituals. This will allow you to create a shield for your lighter units in battles.

If your opponent goes out of its way to ruin your archer strategy then remove those archers from your main armies and use them to harrass other foes.

Using 'Might' commanders instead of 'Magic' ones is usually a matter of resources. Mages are expensive and a lot less durable than a warrior. Remember that a cheap tough commander with a spell item can be a lot faster to produce and defend then a mage. Higher leadership is also a worth a lot. Imagine loosing three of your four mages, each with leadership 25, in a succesful battle. In the worst case it would mean that 75 of your units are stranded in that province without a leader to keep them from routing.

Tossing in a might commander or two in each army is always a good idea, especially if you give it a spell item or missile weapon so it can keep out of harms way.

[Peter Ebbesen]

[quote]Originally posted by tinkthank:
Also wondering what you experienced people think when people catch a whiff of what I am doing. My magic economy is very strong, but when an Air opponent goes for Storm summoners or Staff of Storms, I am unsure how to counter. I mostly go for fast, mobile troops, and I wonder if it would be too late to switch. What counter-counter do I have open to me?/quote]
Demons. Don't forget your heavenly demons!

Since you do not mention them at all in your post, it is a fair guess that you are underusing your heavenly demon summons, which is a crying shame. They not only fit thematically, they also provide one hell of a punch for their gem cost (though mid-game conjuration magic does provide better water summons in Sea Trolls)

It is pretty expensive to have Celestial Masters tied up in summoning the demons, though, as you get one per summon. It would be MUCH more useful if you got them in packs of three (for three times the cost) or five.

[tinkthank]

THanks so far.

Yes, demons. I mostly go with Fire, since I am trying to be mobile, and I use this for hit-and-fly tactics behind enemy lines. I didnt state it because I figured everyone does that. Fire demons are also nice with wind guide of course.

And thanks for those other tips.

As to Might commanders, I find I rarely lose a mage unless I lose the battle / army. They are in the back casting away, and usually either have an air shield, protective items, a guardian, and/or something to keep them alive should a stray arrow come. So I don't usually have that problem.

OK well food for thought. Thank you.

[atul]

One question, if I may...

Originally posted by tinkthank:
The great Earth Mother. She compliments everything so well.
4 points in earth, 4 in Nature. Not the most variable, but....

Some specific reason taking that 4 in nature? I mean, it gives you a blessing effect of berserk, and since all your mages are sacred... just a weeny scratch and they turn into meleemode.

The same applies to the Demons of Heavenly Fire, who forget how to shoot and actually fly to be butchered. While river-demons berserk already, so no big bonus for them...

As to using (or not using) Nobles, at least I find them nice when it comes to finding someone fast and suicidal enough to kill those enemy archers far back. One probably just dies, so if feeling brave, get a group. (Ok, and I'm not claiming that to be effecient by any means, usually even the survivors are crippled to troop-ferry status)

[fahdiz]

I was thinking of trying an S&A game but instead of the Earth Mother I was batting around the idea of a Nataraja with solely a few levels of Earth. I had thought about the Earth Mother, but then I remembered (from demo experience with Pythium) that sacred mages and nature blessings don't play well together.

Do you think an Earth-3 or -4 Nataraja might be a good choice for an S&A supercombatant? Such low magic choices would really let me tweak around with the scales and dominion strength, too.

[ February 19, 2004, 20:44: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

With the new addition to the Jade Emperor, he is not in effect, a bad Pretender, you still have to take significant levels of Astral but he also has access to mistform and Quickness.

[atul]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Do you think an Earth-3 or -4 Nataraja might be a good choice for an S&A supercombatant? Such low magic choices would really let me tweak around with the scales and dominion strength, too.

I've been quite obsessed with Lady of Fortune for my S&A games, but I'd think Natty would do well. At least if you can keep him from getting afflictions before the national healer heroine appears. (Wasn't much impressed by Natajara, too easy to get afflictions, before seeing Caelum's pretender Natty in action in one MP. Now, respect.)

Is it intentional, by the way, that Natajara, when equipped one magic weapon, loses the use of all previous weapons, not just one?

Earth 3 for invulnerability, dominion 7 and 60-point fortress would leave you 280 points for scales, upping to earth 4 costs one scale lift but mages get reinvigoration when blessed. Dunno. Those with more opinions than me probably have, well, more opinions on this matter.

Been wondering, is 100-point citadel worth the points? To me it just seems an expensive trade-off between 30-admin castle and fortified city, but maybe I've missed something.

[Wauthan]

Fahdiz, I recommend the Earth 3 Nataranja. The low earth blessing is simply to weak to give you much edge. Heck! I would rather just take one point in earth and one in either water or air.

Your pretender should be decked out in good enough armor at the time you reach invulnerability. I find that mistform or quickness are superior to protection 30 if you got some good gear on your pretender.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by atul:
(Wasn't much impressed by Natajara, too easy to get afflictions, before seeing Caelum's pretender Natty in action in one MP. Now, respect.)

Is that the FrankE game? If so, then that Nataraja isn't even fully decked out yet.