Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?

[moderation]

Hi, I'm still trying out the demo and experimenting with making a thug. Would a Vine Whip be useful as a defensive weapon if it is able to entangle anyone who attacks? I tested this out, but I don't seem to entangle anyone who attacks. I thought combining this with a Vine Shield might be useful. The Vine Shield seems to well, but the whip by itself only entangles one enemy at the time.

On a related note, I've been trying out a Lightning Spear and it doesn't seem to be effective for repelling. Can someone clarify how repels work and what would be the a good defensive weapon? I've tried the Frost / Fire Brands and the Sword of Swiftness, which seems to be almost as effective while giving some extra defense. The thug in question has 20+ strength so it pretty much kills anything in one hit, but I'm wondering what weapon and equipment combo I can use to keep it alive and affliction free longer.

[Shovah32]

Repels aren't terribly useful. Try a fire/frost/shadow brand along with a shield - probably charcoal, but vine works too. Throw on boots of quickness and he should be killing 2 squares full of enemies per turn and either burning or entangling (great with trample. Consider boots of the behemoth, possibly with jade armour) anybody who attacks.

[Gregstrom]

Quick answer:

Repels are dependent on opponent morale, so won't be effective on high morale enemies. They also are less likely to work on each attack beyond the first. As thugs are frequently surrounded by a swarm of enemies, repels probably won't be your best choice for protection.

For kitting out in the demo... Vine Shield or Eye Shield, strong armour, something to stop arrows, a ring of regeneration to stop afflictions and a Frost/Fire Brand to rack up kills more quickly.

[Sombre]

Repel from a whip with capped damage 1 won't get through the enemy armour and so won't repel anyway, I believe.

Remember repel needs:

Longer reach than the attacking enemy
High attack value in order to pass the roll to 'hit' vs their def
High power to beat their armour and deal the 1 damage
Low enemy morale for them to fail the check they get when they take that 1 damage and not attack you

So basically it sucks. It does improve stuff like pikemen and spearmen vs the morale 9 barbarians, because they have bad morale, shorter weapons and virtually no protection. But even there it isn't as good as having a ranged weapon. So you can see even in an ideal situation it's pretty rubbish.

[Endoperez]

Morale check to abort attack happens before the roll for damage, so repel can keep opponents from attacking even when you use a whip.

[Sombre]

Are you sure? I thought repel needed to deal the 1 damage in order to cause the moral check, thereby making heavily armoured troops immune to most repel.

Quoting the manual isn't going to convince me otherwise (it's wrong too often), an in game example would though.

[Darkstone]

I have a quick follow up question... when you have a unit with multiple weapons (each with different weapon lengths), such as a knight attacking a spearman, would the lance have no chance of getting repelled, but would a broadsword and a hoof do get chances of repel?

Conversely, does the knight always repel with his lance?

[Endoperez]

I tested it, with a commander that had 1 str, 25 attack, 0 defense and a weapon with -10 damage, damage cap 1, 25 attack against random indies. According to log, all attacks were repelled.

659 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def15
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
660 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def5
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
661 striking with weapon Spear. att15 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
662 striking with weapon Spear. att14 def2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
665 striking with weapon Spear. att13 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
667 striking with weapon Spear. att29 def-2
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
668 striking with weapon Spear. att19 def10
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
670 striking with weapon Spear. att16 def3
Commander of Ulm repells Militia (Spear repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
679 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att13 def-7
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
680 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att15 def8
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
681 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att26 def-10
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
682 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att18 def-3
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
683 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att15 def0
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)
684 striking with weapon Broad Sword. att17 def-5
Commander of Ulm repells Heavy Infantry (Broad Sword repelled with Sword of Sharpness)

[AreaOfEffect]

The moral check comes before the opponent takes the damage. The idea is that the opponent sees that charging you will result in injury, thus they make a moral check to be brave enough to take the hit in order to do damage. Also, I'm pretty curtain that a brave opponent takes only a point of damage regardless of things like armor and damage.

You'll know when you've repelled an attack when you see your unit use an attack graphic on the opponents turn.

I think repel is much more useful then most people think. Individual units will fail moral checks more often then you think. For example, Awe +0 forces the same moral check and everyone knows how effective that is. It may be less useful for thugs, but size 2 sacred spear warriors are quite effective both offensively and defensively when given a fire bless.

[AreaOfEffect]

Repels are based on weapon length. You only get to repel when your weapon is long then the opponents. Also, each attack is resolved separately. So when you attack with multiple weapons you only make moral checks for weapons that are shorter then the opponents longest weapon. Let's also not forget that the opponent first needs to be able to hit you.