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  #1  
Old July 24th, 2008, 09:05 AM
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Default Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

I am not sure if this has been done before but I have started to go through the multiplayer games listed in the forum to see which powers are most often chosen to be played in each age.

I am not sure that this information is of any use other than interest and of course it is not complete yet.

People do not always pick the most powerful nation (in their opinion) but from the data there are certainly some nations that are far more popular than others and few that are extremely unpopular. And I am sure that I am not the only one who has wanted to join a game but seen that the nation I wanted to play (and often my 2nd, 3rd and 4th picks too) had already gone. So I am interested to see if people in general pick the power nations (Good double bless nations, nations powerful in astral or blood etc.) or if any other trends would appear.

So far I have only looked at the first three pages of the multiplayer forum, but I intend to continue on and go further back. This sample includes many of the newbie games set up by Llamabeast and others in the New Year. I have made no distinctions between newbie games and those with more experienced players.

Apart from Blitz style games (which are completely excluded from these numbers) I have also excluded some other games from the analysis. This is because what I am interested in is people’s choices. So where the choice was very limited I have excluded the game. So the following types of games were excluded:

1) Games that had the nations assigned randomly to the players. Obviously the players made no personnel choice in this case on which nation to pick.

2) Games that included nearly all the nations in an age. The people choosing last would obviously have little choice and many people will play if the time/game is right regardless of what nation they have. But I am interested in who people want to play. There was no hard limit here. The eras have different numbers of powers and many LA games exclude Ermor and R’lyeh as well so limiting choice.

3) Games that were not yet full up. As these may be added to the data later I have not included these.

4) Games that spanned multiple ages. There were few of these in any case and I think they make the game play quite differently. The advantage of certain LA nations is their magic diversity or of EA nations is their armour or better bows that is lost if you play against other era nations where they can become merely average or even bad in those areas in comparison. Plus my analysis was on an age by age basis so these would have messed this up

There were games that I have included but the options may change people’s picks. I do not think any changes the game radically enough to fundamentally influence the nation choices. Some make nations more viable but I don’t think that players are purely power gaming when choosing nations. These include the following:

1) Significant mods such as CBM and Epic Heroes. Apart from Worthy Heroes games with mods seemed rather rare. CBM mod certainly makes a lot of changes and could make some nations more interesting or powerful (LA Pangaea for example by restoring the Carrion Woods). But it does not radically alter the nature of many nations, perhaps only LA Pangaea? It tweaks rather than balances the nations in most cases as it does not radically affect magic paths on national mages or drastically nerf or boost national troops.

2) Research speeds and indie strengths. Both can change the game and make some choices better or worse. But there were few of these and the changes were not extreme in most cases. Indie 6 rather than indie 9 etc. Hard rather than Very Hard research.

3) Team games were included unless they failed on one of the above four tests (which most did fail on). Some nations can be weak on their own but be far better in multiplayer, specifically those that have slow starts wcan be shielded to a degree in a team game. But not all team, games even place the teams together so I am not sure how significant this would be so I have included them where possible.

4) Games with mod nations. I have not included the mod nations themselves in the numbers and these games were rare. But I do not think a mod nation in the game drastically changes which nations others will pick. No more than the presence of other sea or blood nations (in particular) influences a player’s selection of another. So I have included the none-mod nations in the figures.

5) Games with a small amount of exclusions or certain picks. Especially the LA games that ban Ermor and R’lyeh, but there were some games that insisted on a certain number of sea nations etc too. While these obviously influence the picks (or none picks) of these nations they probably don’t affect the choice of the other 10 or so other nations so I have included them all.

6) I have included the ‘new’ nations such as Bogarus and Hinnom. Although in some cases these were not available when the games started. So especially with these the figures are suspect. Sometimes they could not be picked and then once they could be everyone wants to try them.

Games included and the results to follow....
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Old July 24th, 2008, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

The games analysed so far

Apologies in advance for the inevitable mistakes I have made. I have largely trusted the initial post on which nations were in the game as usually this is updated with the final list. Please let me know if you see any mistakes or games you think should be excluded. Table reads Shortened game name / Age / Number of eligible nations

Peccary EA 8
Jotunland EA 10
Glory MA 15
Crow Road MA 10
BlitzKrieg EA 8
TucoTuco MA 8
FreshMeat EA 10
Darwin EA 12
Stasis MA 17
Aquarium MA 15
Bering EA 7
Beer EA 17
Corruption LA 11
Playtime EA 12
Primea MA 12
Feohtan EA 12
Tigerstripes MA 10
DkParadise EA 8
Silvan MA 8
Strolling 2 EA 12
LA game LA 14
Paladin EA 8
Alexandria LA 12
Forseti MA 12
Vanilla LA LA 11
Newbtopia EA 8
Mega'rium MA 9
EmpiresRis MA 8
Ascendant EA 15
Acouchi MA 16
NEW EA EA 18
Uakari MA 9
Victoria LA 15
New Dawn EA 12
LeafNBat EA 8
Fracture LA 16
Manatee EA 16
FrMeat2 EA 12
FunnelBat MA 8
FruitBat EA 8
VesperBat LA 15
GhostBat MA 8
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  #3  
Old July 24th, 2008, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

The results so far

The below results tables read Nation / number of times played/ Quantum Mechani’s amalgamated nation rating. The last figure is of QM’s total points rating (adding his valuation of Early/Mid/Late/SP & Ease of MP use). This is purely for interest sake and although not created for this purpose gives some indication of how powerful the nations are relative to each other.

The EA gave the most games so far (20) and here are the scores:

Lanka - 16 - Not rated (!)
Sauromatia - 15 - 14
Niefelhiem - 13 - 23
Arco - 12 - 14
Fomoria - 11 - 16
Marverni - 11 - 11
Helhiem - 10 - 21
Mictlan - 10 - 19
Pangaea - 10 - 15
TC - 10 - 13
Hinnom - 9 - 19
Aby - 9 - 15
Tir an Og - 9 - 15
Caelum - 9 - 14
Agartha - 9 - 14
Ermor - 8 - 16
Kailasa - 8 - 14
C'tis - 8 - 13
R'lyeh - 8 - 13
Ulm - 7 - 13
Vanhiem - 6 - 18
Oceania - 5 - 17
Atlantis - 5 - 15
Yomi - 2 - 14

So Lanka is the most popular from the games I looked at, followed by Sauromatia, then Niefel. Yomi was spectacularly unpopular. Nor did Vanheim or many of the Water nations prove popular picks. Apart from R’lyeh the water nations were unpopular in other eras too.

For the MA nations there were less games but it was still a popular age with 15 games

Vanhiem - 11 - 20
Abysia - 11 - 15
Ulm - 10 - 13
TC - 10 - 13
R'lyeh - 9 - 17
Pangaea - 9 - 15
Bandar Log - 9 - 15
Ermor - 8 - 22
Pythium - 8 - 17
Arco - 7 - 18
Eriu - 7 - 15
Mackaka - 7 - 14
Caelum - 7 - 14
C'tis - 7 - 12
Agartha - 7 - 10
Jotunhiem - 6 - 19
Marignon - 6 - 15
Mictlan - 6 - 15
Shinuyama - 5 - 16
Oceania - 4 - 18
Atlantis - 4 - 13
Ashod - 3 - 16
Man - 3 - 14

Perhaps no surprise that Vanheim was the joint winner in the popularity stakes but Abysia being picked so often surprised me. Ulm and TC were both surprisingly popular as neither are exactly powerhouses although TC’s magic variety makes them interesting to play.

Ignoring the new nation, Man and none R’lyeh water nations were unpopular. Yomi’s MA stable mate Shinuyama was also fairly unpopular.

In the LA there were far fewer games. Only 7 made the cut. And of these most had a lot of nations playing so it is hard to tell how popular the choices actually were. Also Ermor and R’lyeh are low due to being excluded from 2 of the 7.

So for completeness I have included the figures for LA but little can be drawn from them.

Utgard - 6 - 20
Mictlan - 6 - 17
C'tis - 6 - 14
Abysia - 6 - 13
Bogarus - 6 - 13
Pangaea - 5 - 18
Marignon - 5 - 17
TC - 5 - 17
Patala - 5 - 12
Ulm - 5 - 11
Jomon - 5 - 10
Ermor - 4 - 24
Agartha - 4 - 18
Arco - 4 - 17
Caelum - 4 - 16
Man - 4 - 15
Atlantis - 4 - 12
R'lyeh - 3 - 22
Pythium - 3 - 14
Midgard - 2 - 19
Gath - 1 - 17

[Edited for formatting]
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  #4  
Old July 25th, 2008, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

Very interesting stuff! Some of the results surprise me a little, including the fact that 5 of 7 LA games allowed Ermor and R'lyeh.
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Old July 25th, 2008, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

Interesting!

I wondered about this just a few days ago, and then you make this list

Jim, likely they were started before the discussion on power levels started in full earnest.
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Old July 25th, 2008, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

I believe that it is likely that a nation gets additional players when it gets a remake, minor or major. People want to try new stuff out.

Marverni, Ulm, TC have all received alterations after the MP games started. As have MA Mictlan with 6 players, which was more than I thought it would have.

Yomi is possibly the one nation I am most bothered by myself. I played it a bit in Kingmaker to get some inspiration. I have some Ideas, but they require JK's attention. Apart from that I'm a bit bothered by their appearence. I dislike their looks. Not individually as much as a bunch of units.
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Old July 25th, 2008, 06:54 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

Interesting. I'm surprised to see Hinnom scoring so high since the nation is a very recent addition. I suppose they'll end in the top 5 within some months.

As for Yomi, I am also surprised by their impopularity. I found this nation very fun, although rather difficult to play. And I'm eagerly curious to hear more about your ideas for the Oni Kings, KO
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Old July 25th, 2008, 07:21 AM

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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

i wanna give yomi a whirl too. i love their concept and they actually look like a lot of fun. plus i love playing underplayed nations, and finding ways to make them work. consequently, i hate playing the "superpowers", and really don't like it when people choose them in MP games, unless they are real new (i've noticed, though, that most players are this way, vets tend to shy from the 'strong' nations, and newer players often jump on them).

i think the main thing that turns people away from yomi is the fragility of their units combined with their high price; their all demons with low protection and often not good enough MR to really stand up to a lot of banishing or demon smiting. yomi just loses too easily in the wars of attrition.

I think what would make them tons more attractive is giving their main researcher +1 RP and all demon troops +1 to +2 MR. Units are a little more robust to banish/smite demon and players have the option of taking a drain scale to help them even more. As is, they are too easy to banish, and their researchers are so terrible that a drain scale is suicide.
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Old July 25th, 2008, 07:59 AM

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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

KO

I'm playing yomi in a new MP game, it's a newb game and I was about to play Hinnom there but llamabeast pointed out that that might not be entirely fair... well I've only gotten weak games so far so I don't really think I'm a good player but anyway I decided to go for a nation I didn't know and which looked weaker than Hinnom... so I got Yomi.

Yomi.. what can I say, personally I think they really suck.. their troops are weakish (and this is WITH CBM) and their mages not that good for EA. The Dai-oni is nice.. but then again very much GC, and probably not as good a SC as other with the same price and no other very good battle mage.

I also think that for a demon nation there isn't much incentive to buy demon troops. that should be changed. The ghost thing is nice but the ghosts are so weak that once they are ghosts most troops die anyway (seems like the etherealness doesn't really help them at all.

Personally I do like the background and my 2 advices would be
1. improve the oni
suggestions on this
- give the flame throwers more range and more ammo so you can actually USE them as archers and when in close as combat troops
- a bit better precision wouldn't be bad either
- AOE damage is another option but probably to much
- +1 MR for oni
2. strengthen the ghosts (of course this also buffs the oni in total so balance is an issue there)
- maybe more HP as ghost
- give them flying and low morale so they break fast but the troops can flee ASAP and live?
- random ghosts with once in a while a very strong one?
3.
maybe buff the mage a bit with a random
4.
cheaper dai oni OR lower enc OR magic weapon

Of course not all changes... that would maybe even overpower them (though not likely) but a selection

new pics are never a bad thing
a whole new troop isn't bad either, I'm not much into oni, but a chinese dragon oni would be nice
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  #10  
Old July 25th, 2008, 09:32 AM
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Default Re: Multiplayer - which nations are being chosen?

You should factor in that many new nations have been added in patches and the games have started before they were available. Then again, people tend to pick the new nations in games as soon as they become available just to try them out. So, besides being a nice statistic, I wouldn't start drawing any conclusions from these lists.
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