Greek Army TO&E and OOB errors

[zaphod72]

There are quite a few errors in units and formations of the Greek army. I'm starting with the major units issues.

Greek army never had:
- M4A3 Sherman tanks (only the M32A1 ARV variant)
- M20 and V150 armored wheeled vehicles
- M7 Priest SP howitzers
- 81mm mortars under armor (M4A1, M125), instead of them each mechanized company use one APC (M113, Leonidas etc) to carry two 81mm mortars and their crew.

ERRORS:
- M-24 light tanks used in armored units (like the other medium tanks) and cav/recon units up until the late 80s. Many of their turrets are still in use on varius Greek islands in fortified positions.
- Greek army removed the AT-4 launcher from every BMP-1, because it was very unreliable.
- Only a few MOWAG vehicles used by Greek police during the 70s-80s.
- Mirage F1CG used only as an interceptor, and never in close support missions (with bombs).
- The first aircrafts in SEAD role are the F-16 Block 40 armed with AGM-88 missiles (during the early 90s). Greek air force never used Shrike and Martel.
- There are many guided bombs and air-to-surface missiles missing, like Paveway II, AGM-31 JDAM, Scalp EG etc.

UNITS MISSING:
- M3 Stuart: used during the 40s and 50s
- M3 White Scout Car: used during the 50s and 60s
- M18 Hellcat: used during the 50s in tank destroyer battalions
- Staghound, Humber Mk.IV and Daimler Dingo armored cars: used up until the early 60s in recon units and "gendarmerie".
- C-27J Spartan transport airplane (deployed in 2005)
- Steyr AAMG: trucks with quad .50 AA Machine Guns
- 3.7 inch mountain guns, 5.5 inch howitzers and 20mm Breda AA Guns (WW II weapons used during the 40s and early 50s)
- Many armored versions of HMMWV (such as M1097, M1118 etc) and VBLs in various roles, like FO vehicles, AT (Kornet, Milan) and GL carriers
- An armed version of the training aircraft T-2 Buckeye (with bombs and rockets) which is used in close support role.
- Newer F-16 Block 52+ with better EW capability and modern guided missiles.
- Special purpose vehicles, such as commando jeeps and ATVs
- 120mm mortars (replacing old 4.2 inch in infantry battalions since 2008).
- Many infantry units, such as Carl Gustav and LRAC teams, airmobile squads, special para units (ETA), national guard etc.

There are many more errors as far as weapons are concerned, but also most of the formations must change. Also, because the most probable conflict in Greek borders would employ naval units, there are many interesting vessels (like assault, patrol and missile boats) that could be included.
I' am trying to finish two corrected versions of obat31 (one with few mistakes but compatible with WinSPMBT ver.4.5 and one completely revised with new and corrected units, formations and even icons).

[DRG]

...... and when it's done I'll look at it and comments like "used during the 50s and 60s" will be far more useful than they are now

Don

[zaphod72]

Don,
Didn't mean any disrespect. The job done in the game is unbelievably great!
To find the real info about the Greek army is extremely difficult especially for the period between Greek Civil War (1946) and "Attila Operation" in Cyprus (1974). Being Greek doesn't mean that I have much more clue (my data have many contradictions).
I will update this thread with more accurate information as soon as possible.

[Wdll]

Don and Andy are very open to changes/corrections etc to OOBs as long as there are some proof/details. My interests are mainly in the navy so I am not that good with the greek oob (I mean in real life).
I would like to add one thing though. Due to a few reasons (doesn't matter for the game so I won't mention them), Greece has yet to receive any BMP-3s. Which is why I have stopped using them in games as of yesterday. I wish I knew when they would be available. Perhaps this year, perhaps next. No one knows yet.

[redcoat2]

zaphod72,

The Greeks may also have used the 75 mm pack howitzer (i.e. unit 530 in orbat12). The 1988 edition of Military Technology’s ‘World Defence Almanac’ claims that they had 108 in reserve in the late ‘80s. The British or Americans might have supplied them for use against communist insurgents after WW2.

The venerable 25 Pounder (unit 146) was also used slightly longer than in orbat31. It was in frontline service until at least 1988.

With regards to the Carl Gustav, the 2004-5 edition of ‘The Military Balance’ (IISS) claims that the Greeks had 2000 at that time.

[zaphod72]

Redcoat2,
From the beginning of Greek civil war the Brits were the main supplier of the Greek army until 1948-49 when the Americans took their place.
The first armor and recce units were formed with various armored vehicles, used by the British army during the war (Centaur A27L tank, Universal Carrier, Marmon Mk IVf, Humber Scout Car and Mk IV).
During the civil war, the Greek army also used four types of British made towed artillery.
- Pdr25 howitzer (remained in service until 1987)
- 5.5 inch howitzer (in service until 1955 when replaced by newly acquired M-144 155mm, but a few of them remained in reserve until 1990).
- 3.7 inch mountain howitzer (entered service in 1948 and went obsolete by 1955).
- 6pdr AT gun (in service until 1952, but also used in island fortifications until 2004).

The above information comes from the official "Military Review" magazine (Hellenic Army General Staff).

[zaphod72]

Wdll,
There is an official intergovernmental agreement on the delivery of 415 BMP-3M to Greece (signed last year), but it's still unknown the date of the first deliveries. I don't think that this will happen anytime before 2010. Also, probably it is better not to use the Kentaurus IFV, because the above agreement meant the cancellation of this project funding.

[redcoat2]

It looks like the guy who wrote the Greek section of the 1988 ‘World Defence Almanac’ did his research when the Pdr25 was still in service in 1987. From now on, I will assume the book is more accurate for '87 than '88. The availability date for unit 146 should still be updated - slightly.

If the Almanac is correct about the Greeks having 75 mm pack howitzers it may have been the Americans who supplied them.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by zaphod72

Wdll,
There is an official intergovernmental agreement on the delivery of 415 BMP-3M to Greece (signed last year), but it's still unknown the date of the first deliveries. I don't think that this will happen anytime before 2010. Also, probably it is better not to use the Kentaurus IFV, because the above agreement meant the cancellation of this project funding.

The little info I have on the matter talks about conflict of interest between a certain well known greek company, its relationship with german armaments and its influence in certain circles in Greece. I just hope this greek goverment finaly does something because for me they are the worst government of recent times (defense related) that makes Simitis' government look like ultra nationalist.

As for Kentaurus, I don't use it anyway, I don't know how good they would be in real life, but in the game they are a bit of jack of all trades but master of none. Not enough armor, not enough ammo, apart from the TI, they kinda suck, in game terms.
Plus of course what you said.

[zaphod72]

Redcoat2,
From the same magazine (Military Review, "Obsolete Howitzers of Greek Artillery"):
- 75mm M1/M116 Mountain Howitzer, acquired in 1945 and remained in service until 1955. Some of them were in reserve up until 1990. Now, they still use a few only for salute shots.