Why Gift of Reason?

[Vger]

Hi,

OK, I'm playing R'lyeh and just had a Vastness show up at the Void Gate. I gave him (it?) Gift of Reason. Now, I did get research of 6 and Astral 3 out of that, but he can't carry anything, even misc, so am I missing something? I don't see a big benefit of having done that.

I do realize he can command troops and also that there may be several marvelous Astral spells he can cast before attacking, but I expected something more.

So, in short: Why use gift of reason?

Thanks,
V'ger gone

[Saber Cherry]

I find it's best for humanoids. But sometimes I use in on Sea Serpents, too, for example. It's nice to have commanders that you won't lose easily, and sometimes, undead or mindless commanders.

[Taqwus]

In the case of a Vastness, mobility plus the lack of need for a magical commander. The Vastness is capable of moving 10 provinces per turn or even underwater, but if it's a unit can only do so under the command of a commander with similar mobility and magical leadership. Such mobility tends to be rare (Horrors, if memory serves, have similar amount, but the only guaranteed way to get, say, a Doom Horror that fights for you instead of killing everybody is a Wish), and most magical commanders aren't quite as buff. If you lost all magical commanders when attacking with a non-commander Vastness, you'd lose the Vastness too.

[Vger]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback. So, basically, it keeps me from losing him if my commanders buy it. OK, gotcha.

So, is a Vastness good enough to go out on his own as an SC? Since he can only buff by Astral spells and no items, I wondered.

Now, off to inspect his casting choices,
V'ger gone

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
In the case of a Vastness, mobility plus the lack of need for a magical commander. The Vastness is capable of moving 10 provinces per turn or even underwater, but if it's a unit can only do so under the command of a commander with similar mobility and magical leadership. Such mobility tends to be rare (Horrors, if memory serves, have similar amount, but the only guaranteed way to get, say, a Doom Horror that fights for you instead of killing everybody is a Wish), and most magical commanders aren't quite as buff. If you lost all magical commanders when attacking with a non-commander Vastness, you'd lose the Vastness too.

Exactly.

PS. I LOVE the void gate!

[Humer]

Originally posted by Vger:

So, is a Vastness good enough to go out on his own as an SC? Since he can only buff by Astral spells and no items, I wondered.

First, one thing needs to be brought into daylight - the order in which following effects are checked: etherealness(1), astral shield(2), blood curse (3, V's special ability), Luck(4), Twist Fate(5). Insights anyone?

I'd put my money on "1->4->5->3->2". Assuming this, V IS rather nasty to think about:
Cast Luck, Cast Twist Fate. Now, 3/4 of non-magic weapon hits are ignored, 50% of those that hit are further ignored, blood curse MR check or hit self, astral shield MR check for paralyze.

They can rout small armies by themselves, just beware magical weapons! 0 prot, 79 hp can get you killed fast, blood curse or no. So pick your fights: Deep strikes into enemy provinces, taxes to 200% and be off or hang around hunting slaves or pillage a turn if you think you can pull it off. Other SC's will kill your V (magic weapons, high MR).

They do gain experince and if they get 'Heroic quickness'... And you can empower them (earth for the *skin path, nature for regeneration).

No items is a serious problem (from SC point of view), since V's do not grow on trees. I'd guesstimate about 2 V's/30 turns...

And then there's magic duel. 3 astral isn't much.

- Humer

[Pocus]

Humer, what do exactly blood curse?

[Taqwus]

I think he meant Blood Vengeance, not the bless ability Blood Curse. It's an ability intrinsic to certain units (Vastnesses have it, so do Doom Horrors, don't remember the other Horrors since if I'm going to wish for one I'm going to get a Doom Horror; slightly better stats than even King of the World if memory serves) and available through a Blood battle spell.

Basically, anytime somebody does anything that causes damage to the Blood Vengeance'd unit, the attacker must make an MR check (modified by the blood vengeance ability; Vastnesses and Doom Horrors have +2) or take the damage themselves, leaving the protected unit unhurt!

It's rather cool to see a swarm of missiles sweep over a Horror or Vastness, see most miss, see most get ignored due to Ethereal, then see casualties among the units "lucky" enough to hit.

Incidentally, I now favour Doom Horrors over Vastnesses, although the former requires a Wish. (Note: even for nations NOT playing R'lyeh, you can get Vastnesses without Wishes if you're lucky, since there are other magic sites that allow void summons. I don't think the odds are very good, 'tho. Fear R'lyeh if it finds a second void site.) Doom Horrors get 20 PROT and the Etherealness, Blood Vengeance, similar MR, identical mobility, lack of vulnerability to magic duel, high (well-deserved) scariness factor, and more powerful attacks -- life draining heals itself, and Consume Soul is delicious. They're not sacred, but if you insist just make one your Prophet (!). So it can't bless any accompanying Horrors. Do you really have to?

[Vger]

Hi,

Great responses, y'all. Thanks so much, everybody.

My Vastness has fought many battles now (with one of my two main armies, mostly made up of my Void summons, with lots of fodder to soak up missile fire and shoot back. (Longbows, lobbos, and those low level hybrids.)

He/it was in an army with a commander I'd given an Eye of Aiming and Bow of Botuf to and in his Last fight (I had him attacking rear units) he got nailed by the bow. POOF! No more casting for him!

BTW, he's got the toughness heroic, so he now has 138 hit points.

So, woe is me, my poor, poor Vastness. Well, he has another rough battle with a big group of indies and lost an eye.

(Question, shouldn't some creatures be immune from some afflictions? I mean, where IS a Vastness's eye? And does anyone want to get close enough to find out?)

Anyway, I was looking at things to summon for my pretender (Good old Tentacleface) and saw Gift of Health. May heal afflictions? Heck yeah! So, I cast it.

Next turn I'm looking at my guys to see who to give the Chalice to (saw that the same turn and thought I might be able to get rid of a few afflictions that way) and PRESTO! My Vastness was healed of everything!

It is SO good to be able to fix afflictions. THANK you Illwinter!

Anyway, I'm on my way to winning my first ever D2 game. (And D1 demo, too. Kept getting slapped upside the head.)

Funny thing, if y'all hadn't mentioned empowering him, I wouldn't have thought of that because he WAS mindless.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Vger:

...
(Question, shouldn't some creatures be immune from some afflictions? I mean, where IS a Vastness's eye? And does anyone want to get close enough to find out?)
...

Some units are, like the Void Lord. The Vastness probably should be.