Ringworld PDB

[BKrani]

While constructing my first Ringworld (I stuffed it up by not building it on top of a star - won't do that again!) I started thinking about some of the features possessed by one writers vision of a Ringworld (you know - the classic, and original AFAIK, Niven RW).

The RW had numerous features but the one that seemed most immediately adaptable to SE4 was it's enormously powerful planetary defence system. For those of you not in the know (probably not many of you I'd guess) the original RW could manipulate the encircled star's photosphere magnetically. The star could be made to flare and the resulting hydrogen stream was 'pinched' to create a hydrogen laser of titanic proportions. Easily capable of reducing entire planets to constituent ions. It was however, a rather slow weapon and took some hours to fire. As such, it was almost 100% effective against any single body approaching the world (whether that body be ship, comet or tightly grouped fighters). Now this was not necessarily an inherent feature of the RW, but was instead the resultant combination of a facility located (hidden actually) on the RW and the RW structure itself.

The point of this diatribe was to ask the question - Has anyone thought of creating an SE4 facility to mimic the features of the original RW?

Either a separate facility, or built into the construction of the RW itself. Adding these defensive capabilities to the RW might increase the value of RWs in the game. As things currently stand, I've found little use for them as the game is usually almost over, or already over, by the time the structure is completed (let along populating it and building the facilities it requires). Making the RW a highly defensive structure in addition to it's storage capabilities might improve it's value. This is of course begging the question of whether or not modifications of this sort can even be done by modders, or whether it requires the intervention of the developers. You could probably simulate it by creating a number of PDBs but it doesn't have the same feel. A PDB is an artefact created to sit on the planet's surface. The RW is an entire artefact in itself (essentially one big PDB). I'd suggest that the current size limitations of PDB would be insufficient to simulate the effect of the RW.

Any comments?

[BKrani]

On the subject of PDBs, I'd like to cast my vote to give enlarged weapon mounts the same bonuses as Starbase weapon mounts or even go a little better.

The reasoning is that planets have one thing in common with Starbases, and one thing fairly unique.

In common, both planets and SBs have SIZE. The weapon systems onboard these sites have the luxury of spreading out, larger generators, wider and more accurate focusing systems and room to house the large maintenance crews required for higher powered systems. Ships OTOH, have a very limited size for their function. A ship that spreads out to encompass larger weapon systems risks becoming an overlarge target, inefficiently crowded and becoming unwieldy and unmanuverable.

Planets are unique in comparison to Ships and SBs in that they have enormous cooling facilities available to shed the heat of advanced powerful beam generators. While in space, the best that ships or SBs can manage is to contain and then slowly radiate heat. Vacuum is not the best of environments for dissipating heat. On planets however, entire rivers, lakes and seas are available to rapidly dissipate the waste heat generated. This means that much larger amounts of energy can be safely manipulated on planetary systems than on SBs or ships.

Of course all this conjecture is pointless if it doesn't meet game balances. I would however point out that planets share the same vulnerability as SBs, that being inability to move. Ships are infinitely more versatile in this point in that an entire empire's might (in the form of ships) can be brought to bare upon another empire's single planet's worth of military might. No contest really. The balance should be that immobile but larger sites can use correspondingly larger and more efficient weapon systems.

Personally, I'd recommend that PDBs get a slightly greater range bonus than SBs.

Comments?

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

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Originally posted by BKrani:
On the subject of PDBs, I'd like to cast my vote to give enlarged weapon mounts the same bonuses as Starbase weapon mounts or even go a little better.

The reasoning is that planets have one thing in common with Starbases, and one thing fairly unique.

In common, both planets and SBs have SIZE. The weapon systems onboard these sites have the luxury of spreading out, larger generators, wider and more accurate focusing systems and room to house the large maintenance crews required for higher powered systems. Ships OTOH, have a very limited size for their function. A ship that spreads out to encompass larger weapon systems risks becoming an overlarge target, inefficiently crowded and becoming unwieldy and unmanuverable.

Planets are unique in comparison to Ships and SBs in that they have enormous cooling facilities available to shed the heat of advanced powerful beam generators. While in space, the best that ships or SBs can manage is to contain and then slowly radiate heat. Vacuum is not the best of environments for dissipating heat. On planets however, entire rivers, lakes and seas are available to rapidly dissipate the waste heat generated. This means that much larger amounts of energy can be safely manipulated on planetary systems than on SBs or ships.

Of course all this conjecture is pointless if it doesn't meet game balances. I would however point out that planets share the same vulnerability as SBs, that being inability to move. Ships are infinitely more versatile in this point in that an entire empire's might (in the form of ships) can be brought to bare upon another empire's single planet's worth of military might. No contest really. The balance should be that immobile but larger sites can use correspondingly larger and more efficient weapon systems.

Personally, I'd recommend that PDBs get a slightly greater range bonus than SBs.

Comments?

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Very good, Bkrani. These are the very same reasons that I posted in the beta forums for WP mounts to be equivalent (at least) to base mounts. Ideally, there should be certain mounts or even special weapons that cannot be placed anywhere but on a planet. When the bug fixing starts to settle down, we'll have to press for more cool "features" like a weapon facility with some unique power -- maybe the ability to fire on the strategic map at targets in another sector?

[Instar]

Well, in SEIII, you could give facilities certain components. If you made a component that made huge *** bLasts with a laser, then you could add that to the facility and that would be that.
(BTW, you could make the comp unresearchable, and the facility researchable, and thus making the weapon only available to the planet I would assume)
(I dont think you could limit it to the Ringworld only though)

[BKrani]

quote:

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Originally posted by Instar:
Well, in SEIII, you could give facilities certain components. If you made a component that made huge *** bLasts with a laser, then you could add that to the facility and that would be that.

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We might be able to create the appropriate component (doing a suitably extraordinary amount of damage with a slow reload time) and set the tonnage to something like 30,000. In conjunction with that, we could also create an appropriate Weapons Platform large enough to hold the component.

The attempt would be to create a WP that can only be built on a site with RW size storage capacity (32,000 - 64,000 cargo).


Strictly speaking, the facilities we're talking about should be classed as a Stellar Manipulation option that, when activated, can be used to destroy 1 fleet anywhere in the system containing the RW. I would not imagine it to be a combat type option. It would fit in nicely - somewhere in between the fast paced destruction of ship-to-ship combat and the elimination of all ships in the system when detonating a star. We are after all, referring to a very controlled, limited detonation of the star photosphere...

Cheers.

[Puke]

i dont think you can destroy individual fleets from the main game window, without being in combat, and without being in the same sector. cool idea for se5 though.

as for facility weapons, how about if you just made a weapon platform the same size as a 'cargo facility' or had one for each level of cargo facility. your could build them normally, or add them to the facil. then you could give them special mounts or something. extend range, increase damage, and whatnot. lots and lots of whatnot.

[BKrani]

quote:

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Originally posted by Puke:
i dont think you can destroy individual fleets from the main game window, without being in combat, and without being in the same sector. cool idea for se5 though..

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Not with the current game engine certainly. I was thinking more of a plea to MM for an additional game feature in future releases.

quote:

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as for facility weapons, how about if you just made a weapon platform the same size as a 'cargo facility' <snip>

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Not quite sure what's you're aiming at here (I've just gotten back form the gym so my comprehension is a little fuzzy!!). The attempt of my previous post was to suggest a WP that was SO large that it could ONLY be built on a RW sized site. Unfortunately, you could probably get around that by building a ****-load of Cargo facilities. Still - If you wanted to devote the entire planetary surface to building the infrastructure needed to support such a weapon - Good luck to you.

My thoughts on Planetary Defence Bases having extended ranges and power came from one of Fredrick Saberhagen's Beserker series. In the particular story, they were trying to lure a Beserker within range of a particular planet so that they could use the vastly superior firepower available, not destroy it the ship, but to swiftly cut the 'brain' free from the ship before it could self-destruct. Thus 'capturing' a working beserker brain for study. the idea was that planetary defence bases (WPs) are more powerfull but the enemy has to come to you first.

Cheers.

[This message has been edited by BKrani (edited 31 January 2001).]

[Puke]

quote:

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Originally posted by BKrani:
Not quite sure what's you're aiming at here

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I thought someone else was asking about having facility sized planetary weapons, and I thought that was a good way to do it. (bigger WP and custom mount) sorry, might have been off topic.

[E. Albright]

quote:

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Originally posted by BKrani:
We might be able to create the appropriate component (doing a suitably extraordinary amount of damage with a slow reload time) and set the tonnage to something like 30,000. In conjunction with that, we could also create an appropriate Weapons Platform large enough to hold the component.

The attempt would be to create a WP that can only be built on a site with RW size storage capacity (32,000 - 64,000 cargo).

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Problem: if you took a Small planet and slapped 10 Storage Facility IIIs onto it, it'd suddenly have 30kt+ storage, and could thus get the Mega Kill-o-Zap Stellar Laser Thingy...

[BKrani]

quote:

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Originally posted by ealbright:
Problem: if you took a Small planet and slapped 10 Storage Facility IIIs onto it, it'd suddenly have 30kt+ storage, and could thus get the Mega Kill-o-Zap Stellar Laser Thingy...

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True. That's what I meant by dedicating the entire planetary surface to the construction of one weapon system. I mean, you could, but then the planet would be about useless for anything else. It would be one hell of a planet to crack, but why would you bother. It's only got the one thing on it. One huge mother of a gas laser.

However, the idea is probably open to abuse, I'd agree.

Cheers.