Some small details...

[quantum_mechani]

There are a few things I think need a boost to be worthwhile:

1.Helhiem
For taking a death scale and losing access to level three air (which can easily get to five with a few boosters), you don't get much. The hangdrott is more expensive than the vandrott, and aruably worse, and the svartalf is the same price as the smith but no random.

The two best solutions would be a reduced cost for the new mages, or make valkries available everwhere (might be overpowered).

2.Lord of the Gates
For the same price as the Prince of Death, you lose flying, two levels of magic, +10 cause fear, and no longer have zero encumbrance. In exchange you get a more few HP and shades that actually hinder becoming a super combatant.

My suggestion would be to greatly increase the number of shades (20-30), it would still not be a good late game super combatant but it could take independants well (like the 50-point dragons).

3.Nagas
These are simply too expensive for what they do. Almost any strategy that takes advantage of thier strengths uses many nation points, which you can not afford after the high starting cost. It is also worth noting that ghost kings are better in most ways, for ten points less.

To solve this the simplist thing would be to lower the cost (70-85 seems about right).

4.Freak Lords
You simply don't want to use a 10 HP pretender with many magic paths in direct combat. Even in the best of conditions, the trampling tires him out before he can be very usefull.

Giving a bonus to crossbreeding would help, resistance to the elements is another possible boost. A little reinvigoration couldn't hurt either (drawing strength from his mount, or have him start with a magic item).


I just think that in thier current state these are not really viable choices. I hope Illwinter will look into tweaking them in the next patch.

[ April 17, 2004, 03:49: Message edited by: quantum_mechani ]

[quantum_mechani]

So, no one has any comments? Obviously some people disagreed, particularly about helhiem.

[tinkthank]

I just saw this right now.
I am unsure about Helheim, but I dont have much experience with them or the game in general. My feelings tell me that the statement "you dont get much" doesn't represent my feelings.
You lose a point of blood (which I never wanted) and a bit of air and you get 3 death and a random on the H-drott. I find that quite tasty. A random air still gets you 3. The dwarves can all forge boots, which can let them forge hammers, and you are in business -- never missed that 3rd earth. The random was nice, but hey. They can all forge that Death Staff (whatever boosts death 2 to 3). I really think this is a decent trade. Surely not for everyone, but I wouldnt want to make it more powerful. But that's just me. Best to you

[Yossar]

I wish there were a way to just vote on a couple questions or just see the results. I've never played Vanheim, so I have no idea how to answer that one. Oh well, I'll give it a shot and mess up your poll since I'm curious.

Is the Freak Lord so bad compared to the Arch Mage? Ten points more expensive and loses 12 movement and a hoof attack, but you get fear, trample, 3 defense, a point of precision, and 2 less encumbrance. Seems like he's at least better than the Arch Mage. The encumbrance, defense, and precision should make the Freak Lord a better support caster than the Arch Mage. Arch Mage is just better at fleeing from combat.

[ April 21, 2004, 09:29: Message edited by: Yossar ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
2.Lord of the Gates
For the same price as the Prince of Death, you lose flying, two levels of magic, +10 cause fear, and no longer have zero encumbrance. In exchange you get a more few HP and shades that actually hinder becoming a super combatant.

Who's the Lord of the Gates? Which nation?

3.Nagas

Mmm, Nagas are some of my favorite rainbow mages - they actually have the HPs and whatnot to go into combat. Probably a little too expensive, but...

4.Freak Lords
You simply don't want to use a 10 HP pretender with many magic paths in direct combat. Even in the best of conditions, the trampling tires him out before he can be very usefull.

On the one paw I'm not fond of any of the human mages in MP - they're just waiting for death against the SCs most players use.

I'd love to see some options to limit pretenders allowed in a game. Humans only, or immobiles only. Also - to limit the maximum magic level, for another way of having a game that doesn't end up being a question of who has the mightiest magic. _That_ should be easy : It's already in the demo.

But - the archmage and the trampler do have map movement of three, and high movement on the map. Strategic mobility, and a chance of ... running away! Also, the trampler, er, freak, has an extra misc slot.

Still - I've never seen anyone use them. I've never used them. Nobody likes them. They might as well find a new hobby. Ahem. Either 1, they suck. Or 2, we're all missing something with them. Definately possible - but my money is on #1, which would be alleviated if there was "human pretenders only" games.

[Gateway103]

Lord of the Gates is available to Ctis & Ermor.

Cost: 50
HP: 105
Prot: 3
Morale: 30
MR: 18
Enc: 2
Str: 24
Att: 12
Def: 10
Prec: 12
Move: 3/16
Leadership: 75
Magic Path: Death 1
Abilities: Wasteland Survival, Lesser Fear -4

-Gateway103

[ April 22, 2004, 05:40: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Gateway103:
Lord of the Gates is available to Ctis.

Cost: 50
HP: 105
Prot: 3
Morale: 30
MR: 18
Enc: 2
Str: 24
Att: 12
Def: 10
Prec: 12
Move: 3/16
Leadership: 75
Magic Path: Death 1, Earth 3
Abilities: Wasteland Survival, Lesser Fear -4

-Gateway103

er, the LoG (new acronym ) dosn't have three earth, though perhaps giving him a point or two would be another way to give a boost.
Oh, he is also available for Ermor.

I'm rather suprised that some people think the Lord of the Gates and Nagas need a boost but are fine with the Freak Lord.

Yes, of all of the options helhiem would (IMO) need the least boosting, if any.

[Gateway103]

Oops, my mistake. Indeed he doesn't have Earth 3, rather research ability 3. In my haste to check, I misread the icon. I'll edit my post to reflect the correction. And yes, he's available to Ermor too.

Thanks QM for pointing out my silly mistakes

-Gateway103