Sam

[Roman]

Hello. Please I need some tips to better use SAM. As for range, radar range, where to display them.
Questions:
In a large map it is convenient to move them a little in front to cover the first -line troops? Obviously, at the safe distance of enemy tanks.

[Dion]

Their use is tricky. The most common types are immobile emplacements used for anti-air defenses and man portable bazooka type units. The ones used for anti-air defenses are best suited for deployment on hills that cover large areas within the SAM's line of sight, and the man potable one's are best used in attacks of opportunity, since their small unit size makes them hard to spot where they can lie in wait, though, they're easy kills so it's probably best to keep them off the front line. Take advantage of their small size, keeping them out of sight, waiting for attacks of opportunity. There are also SAM's that are mounted on vehicles. These are a different story, as they are easy to spot, but they can move great distances quickly and kill enemy vehicles more efficiently than the man portable one's, but enemy tanks can kill them easily, especially if their mounted on soft vehicles, so be careful.

[Dion]

My mistake, in the previous post I said there are multiple types of SAM's. For some reason I thought RPG's were a type of SAM too, but their not. I guess it was because RPG's fire missiles too. SAM stands for Surface to Air Missile, RPG stands for Rocket Propelled Grenade. As far as I know SAM's are only used for anti-aircraft purposes. There are three types, big immobile emplacement missile launchers used in anti-aircraft defenses, vehicle mounted, and man portable. Use them in the same way as described in the above post, except use them against aircraft not vehicles.

[Mobhack]

SAMs, especially early long range ones, can have signifigantly long minimum ranges. So long in fact that they will really only get shots as fixed wing planes enter the map - not when actually on map making a strike run, and will have problems with helicopters even on very large maps.

So the place for area and other LR SAM systems is in the back zone, probably up on a commanding height with clear LOS over the entire battlefield. Of course, these will get spotted PDQ once tartgets get shot at...

Later SAM with smaller minimum ranges can be moved a bit closer up. But probably not over the halfway line. Manpads want to be up front as well. Manpads in the 70s are good (70s planes have limited EW), but thier EW generally does not keep up past the 80s. It can be a problem supplying manpads with ammo as well since they tend to be spread about the place - so a Manpads system on a truck may be better than a shoulder fired crew?. All will want to be on hilltops with a good LOS.

SAM usually have few rounds, so ammo trucks nearby are a good idea. However - see above regarding supplying Manpad systems that are shotgunned all over the place. At the least, assign some jeeps to those to run back to the resupply depot, behind a hill etc, not standing in the line of sight of the enemy. Me, I usually avoid shoulder fired Manpads - I'd rather have another ZSU-23-4 or Vulcan!.

However - Area and medium range SAM do best with some SP-AAA systems sprinkled in the mix to deal with close range shots, especially some human player being sneaky with "nape of the earth" helicopters trying to get within the minimum range and executing the SAM with thier rockets and cannon, by flying down river valleys or forest draws as masking. I like a ZSU-23-4 type thingy or Vulcan with a decent EW alue for that. Gephards and Tungaskas - nice but pricey!.

Also, a self-propelled SAM mounting wins out against the emplaced type - they can scoot after revealng themselves and not be where the inevitable arty strike or air attack lands. Emplaced ones need to be picked up by a big truck, shifted then dumped so relocation puts them out of service for 3-4 or so turns. An SP one can move a fair bit and be ready soon as it stops.

[Dion]

Manpad SAM's, also known as man-portable SAM's are usually two man teams, subsequently they are easy to kill. If one man gets killed they are only half as effective, so if you choose to put them on the line, pair them up with some infantry sections, so the infantry sections will absorb most of the damage if attacked.

[lansoar]

Originally Posted by Dion

Manpad SAM's, also known as man-portable SAM's are usually two man teams, subsequently they are easy to kill. If one man gets killed they are only half as effective, so if you choose to put them on the line, pair them up with some infantry sections, so the infantry sections will absorb most of the damage if attacked.

What do you think of their effectiveness, if they defeat EW?

[Dion]

If they defeat EW they should still be good to go, but if EW defeats them and still able to fire, I would consider using them an act of desperation because their electronic sensors wouldn't work, thus their outstanding missile qualities would be eliminated, rendering them not much better than a Rocket Propelled Grenade.

[lansoar]

Originally Posted by Dion

If they defeat EW they should still be good to go, but if EW defeats them and still able to fire, I would consider using them an act of desperation because their electronic sensors wouldn't work, thus their outstanding missile qualities would be eliminated, rendering them not much better than a Rocket Propelled Grenade.

agree. SAMs in SP have a hard history. I remember debating Jim Worth on them. I created a mod that doubled ACC which improved the situation. Those values were adopted more or less in future SP2 versions. In the original SP2, Helicopters, despite the SAMs weakness in hitting anything, were still waytoo vulnerable. Not to destruction or damage though, but to morale failure. They would evade and button-up.....and then retreat, you could not rally them. Thus Helos were useless in terms of combat sustainability. Use them quick before they retreat.

Overall i love Shrapnel Games fine tuning of AAA and SAM vs airplane/helicopter. EW is a massive element as it should be. Helicopters in particular are far more robust and can maintain a presence even in the face of damage when armored.

however, I have noted of late that that MPADS devices, at least against armored opponents seem to be at a disadvantage, even if they defeat EW and "hit". The damage is low, the unit (plane/helo) remains. I've even seen a number of "no effect" hits. Just makes me be inquisitive. Esp in light of the Ukraine fighting. Hence i was wondering what others thought. I am not suggesting any change. Too many variables involved. But i always love to ask questions. We have a very mature and robust combat model in the current WinSP. I'll take the current system over the original any day. I did though play an official scenerio where helos just dominated with ATGMs and could not be brought down due not only to EW but when hit, little to no damage that was shrugged off. I blame the scenerio in part. But i have noticed this trend in other scenerios, esp vs. Jets.