US OB v4

[narwan]

Formation 379 (indep cav section) has units 365/744 (cavalry scouts) in it (at least in '85). Those are 5 men units and won't fit in the formations M3's who have carrying capacity of 4.

Unit 119 (AH-1S) only has a 20mm cannon as armament. Is that intentional?

[DRG]

narwan said:
Formation 379 (indep cav section) has units 365/744 (cavalry scouts) in it (at least in '85). Those are 5 men units and won't fit in the formations M3's who have carrying capacity of 4.

Unit 119 (AH-1S) only has a 20mm cannon as armament. Is that intentional?

I'll look at Formation 379 at some point.

Unit 119. Yes. You'll notice the 20mm Gat versions with TOW can be bought as well. Is there a problem with being able to buy a unit with just the cannon ?

Don

[narwan]

It's fine, I'm not very familiar with the historical variants and was just curious about this one. The cobra's with TOW's disappear from the roster a lot sooner that the one with just the cannon; I spotted unit 119 in a 1989 setup I was toying with and it was the only Cobra among the attack helicopters. It seemed odd to me that the only Cobra variant had just a cannon.

Remco

[thatguy96]

DRG said:
Unit 119. Yes. You'll notice the 20mm Gat versions with TOW can be bought as well. Is there a problem with being able to buy a unit with just the cannon ?

Don

I'm curious about this, since I was involved in the discussions about AH-1s pre-V3. I could easily be wrong about the accuracy of this unit, I have been about more than one thing in the past, but I would think that there would still have been a secondary weapon.

The AH-1F (Originally referred to as AH-1S Modernized) were the last Cobra's in US Army service. As it stands now the AH-1Fs are out by 1986, while this lone AH-1S remains until 3/99. I'm away from my print sources at the moment, but I'll check them later and post what I find on my end.

[Gooseman2448]

I personally think it is a waste of an oob slot. If you are using it in a scenario just turn off everything else, you can modify it in a campaign. I know I would not want to have an attack helo with only guns.

I can come up with other more realistic and usefull things to add.

Can we get rid of the Furture AH-X (274-276) and M113A4 IFV (604) & M113A3+ (605) & M113A3+(TI)(641)?

The Army is never going to use these.

M-113A3 with slat and ACAV turrets would be more realistic (used in Iraq). M-1127 SRV (Scout Veh) w/ and w/out slat. M-1134 ATGM w/slat.

Just a few. The number of helos and aircraft is getting larger than the ground force they are supposed to support.

[Marek_Tucan]

Gooseman2448 said:
I know I would not want to have an attack helo with only guns.

You would if you were to face a strong infantry-based force, as it would be significantly cheaper compared to ATGM helo
To my knowledge, Apache CAS loadouts often do trade Hellfire racks for additional 19x70mm pods IRL.

[thatguy96]

Marek_Tucan said:

You would if you were to face a strong infantry-based force, as it would be significantly cheaper compared to ATGM helo
To my knowledge, Apache CAS loadouts often do trade Hellfire racks for additional 19x70mm pods IRL.

As did the TOW-capable AH-1 CAS loads, trading TOW for more rockets.

The AH-X helos should probably be replaced with ARH-70s, which are much more likely in the present-2020 timeline than any replacement for the canceled RAH-66 (which the AH-X were supposed to model from what I can tell).

I too would advocate for the removal of upgraded M113s, but I think that's a bit more personal preference. To say they're never going to be used might be a bit much considering the relatively heavy usage of M113s by rear echelon units in Iraq and Afghanistan, that end up on the front line because of a lack of traditional fronts and rears.

[DRG]

As you all have proven in these few posts there are a lot of different "opinions" about what should or shouldn't be added to the game. If I add something somebody *****es because they think it should have been something else. If I remove something somebody else will ***** and complain. In fact, the more we add and the longer the game exists the number of complaints has increased as more people with more "opinions" as to what the game should or shouldn't be has increased.

Our job is to try to balance all that and guess what guys ???..... we're both getting tired of trying. We have reached the point where not putting a hyphen between "AK" and "47" has generated a complaint and it's all getting just a wee bit tiresome.

The AH-1S Cobra that started all this has been in the OOB's for at least a year. It's in the V3.5 OOB's exactly the way it is now. It started out in the V1 OOB's with Hydra FFAR missiles included so some time between V1 and V3.5 the FFAR's were removed. Why were they removed ? Good question. I really don't know as all the notes to previous games were lost in a HD crash but I can guess it was due to a complaint of some sort because I wouldn't have removed them for the fun of it.

It does allow players the option of buying an attack helo with just guns much as Marek described. It's a lot cheaper than one loaded down with TOW's that you may not need if you are dealing with an infantry opponent. Gooseman2448 thinks it's a "waste of an oob slot". but why should a player have to spend an extra 100 or so points just to turn off the weapons you don't want or need ?


Don

[thatguy96]

I'd like to think that I'm not complaining, at least in this case, but asking questions because I cannot see into your head and understand development decisions without doing so. I understand that a lot of hard work goes into balancing out the dynamics of the game with the reality (and the "reality"), and that these won't always mesh, so its important to ask questions in my mind to get a better grasp on why certain decisions were made, both just for my own information and also for my own OOB editing.

The end date for unit 119 meshes with the out of service date for AH-1s in the US Army. From what I can tell, however, these aircraft were AH-1F (as units 121 and 698). I can see confusion stemming from the general confusion surrounding the last three US Army AH-1 variants, all of which were initially AH-1S variants (including the "Modernized AH-1S" that was subsequently redesignated AH-1F).

Even from the sources its not entirely clear when the AH-1S were phased out and/or redesignated completely. It does appear that the AH-1s of the 25th Infantry Division, which were the last in the US Army, and departed 3/99, were AH-1F. I could see just leaving unit 119, but units 121 and 698 should probably also have end dates 3/99.

[PanzerBob]

I must say, I wouldn't sneeze at an AH1 with "just" a 20mm Gatling Gun. And I'm certainly glad other attack helos have them as well as rockets and other stores do run out! They make great mind changers!!!

Otherwise, bombing up an attack helo takes 15 to 20 mins (3-4 turns)

If the future stuff doesn't jive with your vision then ignore it.

Man you'd hate my version of Canada's if I was PM OOB!!!!!