PBW, First Impressions.. (Multiplayer discussion)

David E. Gervais · #1 January 18th, 2004, 05:20 PM

Ok, I did it, I fell victim to the perils (and joys) of PBW. And my first experience started out with a bang. (aka: a PBW-Athon) lots of fun to be had for sure but there were some bitter-sweet leftover feeling about this method of play.

BTW: Last night's PBW-Athon is now being continued as a 'regular' PBW game.

I can't help but feel that the way the game handles this PBW multi-player feature needs some work. (and I'm going to let Aaron know a few ideas I have concerning this.) Having the game 'Close' each time the player 'Ends-turn' forcing me to relaunch the game at every turn does not sit well with me.

I think there needs to be some work done here.

1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)
2) It would be nice to have a 'send PBW Info' button within the game. (of course the player would need to configure the required info like server name, email addresses etc.)
3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.
4) A better method than feeding/compiling/distributing 'save games' is needed. (there must be a way to only send the 'changed' data and not the whole save game each time for processing.) If the 'packet' size was small enough, then many, many more turns could be played in a relitively short time.
5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

I'm sure I'll think of more stuff, but these points were IMHO the major issues I had with the PBW gaming system.

Now don't think that I would prefer that SE be real-time, because I don't, but when playing a PBW-Athon and it sometimes takes longer to send/recieve info than to actually play your turn, some speed improvements will go a long way to making this a more enjoyable game experience.

So, what do you think? Agree? Disagree? Have a few suggestions of your own? (Please keep your ideas/suggestions targeted on the PBW/Multiplayer aspect of the game. Who knows perhaps some stuff will make it's way into SE5.)

Cheers!

[ January 18, 2004, 18:59: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

Captain Kwok · #2 January 18th, 2004, 05:46 PM

One thing to keep in mind was that the system in SE:IV was really developed for PBEM and not the PBW system.

But I have no problems for lobbying Aaron to make the changes you listed below!

primitive · #3 January 18th, 2004, 05:48 PM

Congrats on loosing your virginity

Although all your suggestions would be nice to have for SEV, just stick with PBW a little longer and you will see these are not major issues

Most games does a turn a day (or every other day), and with a decent connection Receiving/Sending turns is fast enough, and with a good unzipper its only a few cliks to get the game launced. You could also use the RTC to save a few more clicks when all players are Online at the same time.

Anyway, when will we see you in KOTH ? Always good with some fresh meat

TerranC · #4 January 18th, 2004, 05:53 PM

1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)

You can survey your empire during your turn. If you pressed End Turn prematurely, you can always load the game again. And You can always load the game again after you send in your player data.

2) It would be nice to have a 'send PBW Info' button within the game. (of course the player would need to configure the required info like server name, email addresses etc.)

I don't understand what you're asking for here. PBW info as in what?

3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.

No. It is your responsibility to check up on your PBW games, and it is your responsibility to inform yourself when the new turns are due. Plus, I certainly do not want SE4 make annoying pop ups each time new turns are generated, nor I would want it connected to the internet.

4) A better method than feeding/compiling/distributing 'save games' is needed. (there must be a way to only send the 'changed' data and not the whole save game each time for processing.) If the 'packet' size was small enough, then many, many more turns could be played in a relitively short time.

You don't send the save game to PBW; you only send Player Information files to PBW.

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

Get the PBW Real Time client. It's in your SE4 Gold CD.

[ January 18, 2004, 15:54: Message edited by: TerranC ]

DavidG · #5 January 18th, 2004, 06:54 PM

It sounds to me that what you'd really like is improvments to TCP/IP. The only reason to use PBW vs TCP/IP for games were everyone is Online is that TCP/IP is slower for larger games.

Idealy what would be nice is to have improved TCP/IP for the start of the game and then when the turns start to take longer put in on PBW.

Edit: IF you find opening and closing the game after each PBW turn a pain try what I do. I have a .bat file on my desktop that will get me right into my turn for the game. Saves a lot of clicking and typing in of passwords.

[ January 18, 2004, 16:55: Message edited by: DavidG ]

DavidG · #6 January 18th, 2004, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerranC:
5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

Get the PBW Real Time client. It's in your SE4 Gold CD. [/QB]

??? Is he not talking about SE4 tactical combat here?

Cipher7071 · #7 January 18th, 2004, 07:16 PM

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger David Gervais. I just got into my first PBW game too. There aren't a lot of Version 1.49 games to choose from, so I took over an empire. If you want a challenging experience, try that. I think maybe some players who abandon games do it because things have gone slightly wrong...

Hmmmm...let me see if I can get out of this mess.

geoschmo · #8 January 18th, 2004, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by David E. Gervais:
1) The game should not close at the end of each turn. (this way the player could overview his/her empire while waiting for the next PBW turn to be available.)
Typical PBW games don't move at the speed of your first game there. When the next turn is coming in a day instead of ten minutes you aren't going to want to sit there waiting.

3) The player sould be notified in the game when the next turn is ready and have a 'Get next PBW turn' button/indicator.PBW Real Time Client does help with this, and auto launches your turn for you when it's ready. Although again, this is a only a factor because you are playing an extremely fast game. Typically in PBW game you aren't sitting around waiting for the next turn.

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.Not sure what you are suggesting here, but it sounds like you maybe are asking for tactical combat? In theory, I have no objection to tactical combat. However, I have not heard of a suggestion that sounds at all workable for more then a two player game. Tactical combat can take many minutes to resolve between two individuals, and in the mean time everybody not in combat is sitting around doing nothing.

As the other guy said, PBW wasn't designed to function as TCP/IP but to streamline teh file handling for PBEM. With RTC though it comes close to TCP/IP functionality.

[ January 18, 2004, 17:47: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Master Belisarius · #9 January 18th, 2004, 07:46 PM

David: although I understand your concerns and mostly agree, really I think ONE thing MUST BE fixed yes or yes: WHY is not allowed to save the turn in simultaneous games??? Don't understand why Aaron doesn't fixed it yet... In games when you spent 30-60 minutes to do your moves, you could lose everything if your computer hang up or something like that...

David E. Gervais · #10 January 18th, 2004, 08:22 PM

Thanks for the comments, (so far)

to clarify one thing,..

5) It would also be very nice if 'encounters' were handled in real-time.

by this I mean when you 'encounter' other races and get to do the 'treaty thing'. It would be nice if a 'dialogue' opened up between the parties. (not just I propose this,.. accept, refuse?) My thoughts behind this are to make 'first encounters' (especially in PBW or any multiplayer) more dynamic.

My main feeling after playing PBW-Athon was that there was much interest and fun potential in having faster paced multiplayer games. Think of it like this, sure you can play a game of chess over the net with 1 or 2 turns a day over an extended period, but It hardly compares to a real-time game of 30-45 mins. (the game [chess] is still turn based, but there is a lot to be said for the 'pace' of a live game.)

As to the saving/loading. uploading/downloading, opening/closing, etc. I left the game feeling like the 'Mechanics' of PBW got in the way of the gameplay of PBW. IMHO The 'Mechanics' of multiplayer needs to be transparent and imbedded in the game. I shouldn't have to go to a website, log in a chat room, run MS Messenger and check my e-mail every 5 mins to enjoy the game.

Bottom line Playing PBW felt more like 'work' than 'play', and spreading the 'work' over days instead of hours does not IMHO reduce or eliminate the 'mechanical' tasks that are involved. There is definately room for improvement. I am hoping that togeather we can discuss alternate possibilities.

Nuf said, Cheers!

P.S. The PBW game is a bLast, and I had/am having fun, but it left an aftertaste. Know what I mean?

[ January 18, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]