obat44 - West Germany

[Arralen]

Panzerfaust 3 was officially accepted and introduced on the 30th September 1992 and replaced both "leichte Panzerfaust 44mm" and "schwere Panzerfaust 84 mm Carl Gustav" during the next months. (no idea how long it took)
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/panzerfaust3.html

Training for the later one had even ceased in '88, as far as I know from own experience. After all, serial production of the Panzerfaust3 already started in '89.

In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87. Btw., it was the M2 that the Bundeswehr was and is using.

[PlasmaKrab]

Arralen said:
In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87.

9/92? I know I'm just bickering about but maybe somewhat later for most units? If the first batch was handed out to the material command in September, it should take some months before regular units recieved launchers, warheads, spares, training...
BTW, maybe you have info on which units recieved it first? I mean paras, Jaegers, PzGren... in which order?

Btw., it was the M2 that the Bundeswehr was and is using.

IIRC, the Bundeswehr used it some more years as a signal flare launcher. that reains me of something...
Mmh, wasn't the US M-202 Flash Launcher meant to be primarily a signalling device, plus the advantage of "making enemy AFVs button up"?
See what I mean? What about a CG-M2 as infantry flame for some units?
Could add some punch...

[TheDesertFox]

Arralen said:
Panzerfaust 3 was officially accepted and introduced on the 30th September 1992 and replaced both "leichte Panzerfaust 44mm" and "schwere Panzerfaust 84 mm Carl Gustav" during the next months. (no idea how long it took)
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/panzerfaust3.html

Training for the later one had even ceased in '88, as far as I know from own experience. After all, serial production of the Panzerfaust3 already started in '89.

In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87. Btw., it was the M2 that the Bundeswehr was and is using.

So much for individual subjective impressions.

I can tell you first hand that I life-fired PzFaust 44mm while training my platoon in Grundausbildung in 1994 in Ehra-Lessin and Haltern and also was trained on Carl-Gustav while being at KTS-2 in Munster, 1990.

Maybe you might want to dig deeper into this issue and can come up with some more substantiated data than what can be found on a website ? I guess we need some sensible data from when to when we have overlap dates because equipment didn´t cease to be used from one day to another but is faded out gradually.

cheers

Helge

[TheDesertFox]

PlasmaKrab said:
IIRC, the Bundeswehr used it some more years as a signal flare launcher.

Exactly that is what we used it for while being on a reserve officers course "Kompaniegefechtschiessen" in Hammelburg 1995.

cheers

Helge

[Arralen]

Helge, would be great if you read my postings a little bit more accuratly:

1) Carl Gustav wasn't used in antitank role as early as '88. In '88/'89 we had 3 per PzGren Kompanie, but NO(!) ammo at all. We were told the new PzFst would come soon, and that it wasn't clear if and what for the old Carl Gustavs would be used in the future.
It is still used for battlefield illumination - and only in that role. But we don't have battlefield illumination in SPMBT.

2) Delivery of PzFst3 to the troops started in '92. Considering that it was in development since '72 IIRC, it is not that amazing that for basic training the old lPzfst 44mm Lanze was still used in '94, especially as the systems are not that different.


And if you don't trust one source on the web, here some more remark from those which "have been there, done it" ... :
"Dass die schw PzFst durch die PzFst3 abgelöst wurde wie auf vielen Seiten beschrieben, stimmt meines Wissens so nicht. Die PzFst3 wurde 1992 in die Bw eingeführt, und zu diesem Zeitpunkt wurde mit der schw PzFst schon nur noch Gefechtsfeldbeleuchtung geschossen. Mit Einführung der PzFst3 wurden dann die leichten Panzerfäuste 44mm im Tausch zurückgeliefert."
http://www.fussle.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5998

"That the SchwPzFst was replaced by the PzFst3, as described in multiple sources, is as far as I know not correct. The PzFst3 was introduced in 1992, and at that point the SchwPzFst was already only for battlefield illumination. With the issuing of the PzFst3 the lPzFst 44mm where returned in exchange."

"Zur schw Leuchtbüchse selbst nach was: Richtig ist, das die Leuchtbüchse nicht der direkte Vörgänger der PzFst 3 ist. Das war, wie ebenfalls richtig erwähnt, die lPzFst "Lanze". Die Leuchtbüchse ist normalerweise in der selben Anzahl wie das PARS Milan vorhanden. Denn dafür wurde die Büchse im Dienst gehalten. Wenn man sich mal die Schußweite, in der die Leuchtbüchse genutzt wird anschaut, wird klar, das sich die mit knapp 2000m ziemlich genau mit der der Milan deckt. Denn am Anfang der nutzung der Milan gab noch kein MIRA für die Milan. Das heißt das PARS war nicht nachtkampffähig. Und damit man die Milan auch bei Nacht einsetzen kann, man die Leuchtbüchse vorgesehen. "

Ok, I'm too lazy to translate this entirely. Basically it says, that there always were the same numbers of "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" and Milan ATGMs, which didn't have night vision equipment in the first version. the range of the "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" was essentially the same (2000m) as the range of the Milan, to make it possbile to use the Milan for night fighting.
[Our Milans had MIRA imaging equipment..., so we didn't need the Carl Gustavs for battlefield illu]

All in all, I must say it's astonishing difficult to get any hard facts about Bundeswehr equipment at all. Not because it's top-secret (it's still a conscript army), but because everything is so obscure and mixed-up and unsure (because it's a conscript army ?!).

However, I'll try to get official data about Panzerfaust, Milan I and II, the Marder and other items. May take some time, though....

[TheDesertFox]

Arralen said:
Helge, would be great if you read my postings a little bit more accuratly:

Hehe, you did write this bit. no ?

Arralen said:In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87

Look we need some consensus which works reasonably close to reality in game terms. That´s why I asked for overlap dates. All we need to know is:

PzFst44 intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
PzFst44 extro date: not earlier than 09/1994

PzFst3 intro date: not earlier than 09/1992
PzFst3 extro date: [fill in sensible date here]

Carl-G. intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
Carl-G. extro date: not earlier than 09/1990 as AT-weapon [1]

That´s it. Nothing more, nothing less. And please keep in mind that the fact that a given PzGrenBtl. didn´t use a kind of equipment after a given date anymore does NOT! necessarily mean the whole Bundeswehr did not use this kind of equipment anymore.

Good info you came up with so far. I will be pleased to read more on the issue. Keep it up!

cheers

Helge

[1] Being trained to fire this beast in AT-role at Panzertruppenschule does mean something about its use in the Bundeswehr, don´t you think ?

[Suurajatollah]

Hi all,

I have found a very good page that informs a lot when it comes to modern armarment of the german army.

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

Though it is written in germany...

Anyways, I think I have found few flaws in WG OOB:

*The page informs that Carl Gustav is still in use
*Where is this new Puma IFV
- http://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma_tracked/
*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Sources:1.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pzh2000/
2.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/paladin/

*Mtn Scouts have no Morale nor Experience mod +3 which is common add on to every scout units
*Ranger units in many (if not every) OOB's have +5 or greater Morale mod and Experience mod. WG do not have.
*Some modern units are missing as the page informs

Should these things be corrected in a future update?

Cheers,
Olli

[Arralen]

Suurajatollah said:
Hi all,
I have found a very good page that informs a lot when it comes to modern armarment of the german army.
http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE
Though it is written in german...

Obviously, it's the official army homepage .. should be written in german, shouldn't it? Sadly, it does not give any information about dates, which is so thoroughly needed.

But there's an english version as well - simply hit the button for the "english version" on the front page. Haven't checked the info provided, though ..
http://www.deutschesheer.de

Anyways, I think I have found few flaws in WG OOB:
*The page informs that Carl Gustav is still in use

Actually, it is not in use as antitank weapon any more. It's says it's only used for illumination purposes.
Our problem here is - noone seems to now when it was officially phased out, and more important,at which point it was practically out of service because of ammo shortage, umwillingness to carry it along/ train with it and maybe even poor maintenance / missing spare parts
The OOB says 12/87 atm, and I tend to agree.

Where is this new Puma IFV

Good question. It is decided it will be build and bought, at last.
The information on that site is outdated, btw.:
Only "Schutzstufe A" and "Schutzstufe C" armor variants will be build (with 32/43 ton weight).
Here are some more pages about Puma:
http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/87.0.html

So we would only need 2 different versions in the OOB -

• the airlift configuration, with low side armor, resistant to 14,5mm anti-equipment snipers and arty shrapnel; resistant to conventional 30mm AP and RPG-7 from the front and grazing hits on the flanks
• full armor config; 30mm and RPG-7 on 3 sides

Btw., applying those armor kits (9-10 tons!) is definitly not within the time frame of a WinSPMBT battle - in fact, they are still not sure how the grunts are supposed to handle the armor slabs at all

Furthermore, it should have high general survivability, as it is build to soak up mine hits and the enemies' first shot (which he is likely to have in urban environment and peacekeeping missions) and high armor values on the turret, as it is unmanned and sealed vs. the interior.

*Mtn Scouts have no Morale nor Experience mod +3 which is common add on to every scout units
*Ranger units in many (if not every) OOB's have +5 or greater Morale mod and Experience mod. WG do not have.

These are, as well as the various snipers, pretty generic units which do no exists in that form. I'm not sure how to "tie" them to real units, and therefore, which qualitiy to asign to them.
In general, I would leave them as they are and rate the "normal" troops waayyy lower .. a good deal of those conscripts are "Kampftrinker" (does anyone know to translate that?) and the officers jerks, but nothing more.

*Some modern units are missing as the page informs

which ?

[PlasmaKrab]

*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Quite off-topic, but he's right.
SP howitzers tend to be strangely rated. PzH 2000 is meant to be fully automated, Crusader-like, so should have better ROF and maybe FC (don't know if FC applies to indirect fire artillery?), maybe also better gun accuracy.
Same with the French AUF-1 GCT. Starts growing old, but it was nevertheless one of the first 155mm SPA with semi-auto loading and 5 rounds ready to fire (kind of autoloader). That should give both of these a huge ROF, and according cost. Gentlemen, in the Iraqi oob, the AUF-1 is even cheaper than the 2S1, which is good quality, but 122mm and 10 years older!

[DRG]

TheDesertFox said:


[1] Being trained to fire this beast in AT-role at Panzertruppenschule does mean something about its use in the Bundeswehr, don´t you think ?

Arralen said:
All in all, I must say it's astonishing difficult to get any hard facts about Bundeswehr equipment at all. Not because it's top-secret (it's still a conscript army), but because everything is so obscure and mixed-up and unsure (because it's a conscript army ?!).

However, I'll try to get official data about Panzerfaust, Milan I and II, the Marder and other items. May take some time, though....

Perhaps the REASON everyone finds it difficult to pin down exact dates IS BECAUSE they were not all sent to the junkyards the minute they became " obsolete " by more modern equipment. If people were training with it then it's available even though it might be technically out of service. Had a conflict arose, there is a very good chance those "training weapons" would have been used for their orignal purpose. It a grey area. If it wasn't there wouldn't be as much debate as there is.

Don