Very disappointing news about AI combat spell use

[ioticus]

The following is taken from a Usenet post about a question I posted to Gandalf:

>
> ">> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
>
>> C) it does have a spell selection routine that does not include
>> spells which are stupid to cast in combat. I suspect that alot of
>> player opinions are going to fly on that but nothing is locked in
>> stone. But its very playable.
>
> Thanks for the detailed response. I'm very pleased to read the AI is
> much better. I'm confused about the above point, however. Are you
> saying there are some combat spells in the game that are stupid to
> cast in combat and therefore the AI does not use them? Why have those
> spells in the game if they are stupid to cast?

It would probably be more correct to say that spells were left out that the
AI isnt smart enough to know WHEN to cast them. The ai routine couldnt
possibly come up with all of the if this and not this and only when kindof
decision making for every spell. So spells which often did more damage than
good or were for specific situations were left out of the list. Whats left
is kindof a "choose from this list of usually a good idea to cast spells"

Gandalf Parker

The more I think about the decision to exclude certain spells from ever being cast in combat because the AI cannot always decide the best time to cast them, the more mad and sad I become. The only spell I can think of in Dom2 that the AI would sometimes cast poorly was Breath of Winter, and even that could be overcome most of the time by arranging your troops properly. Now, I feel they are making combat less exciting and more predictable by limiting casting to a select group of spells. Even if the AI were to stupidly cast some spells sometimes, it would have an equal effect on both the player and the AI for the most part. I don't see how this decision could possibly result in a better AI or improve combat in any way. One of the charms of combat in Dom2 was that the AI could cast *any* spell, even if not always perfect in its casting, it created a certain degree of unpredictability and excitement in combat. By limiting the AI's casting, you are probably also limiting the spells your own units will cast in combat, except for the 5 you are able to script in the beginning rounds. If the AI never casts Breath of Winter, for example, you could gain an advantage over the AI by scripting BoW for your own units in the opening rounds, knowing that the AI will never cast it for its own units. Does anyone agree with me that this is a poor design decision or am I off base?

[quantum_mechani]

ioticus said:
The following is taken from a Usenet post about a question I posted to Gandalf:

>
> ">> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@the.dead.ISP.of.Community.net> wrote:
>
>> C) it does have a spell selection routine that does not include
>> spells which are stupid to cast in combat. I suspect that alot of
>> player opinions are going to fly on that but nothing is locked in
>> stone. But its very playable.
>
> Thanks for the detailed response. I'm very pleased to read the AI is
> much better. I'm confused about the above point, however. Are you
> saying there are some combat spells in the game that are stupid to
> cast in combat and therefore the AI does not use them? Why have those
> spells in the game if they are stupid to cast?

It would probably be more correct to say that spells were left out that the
AI isnt smart enough to know WHEN to cast them. The ai routine couldnt
possibly come up with all of the if this and not this and only when kindof
decision making for every spell. So spells which often did more damage than
good or were for specific situations were left out of the list. Whats left
is kindof a "choose from this list of usually a good idea to cast spells"

Gandalf Parker

The more I think about the decision to exclude certain spells from ever being cast in combat because the AI cannot always decide the best time to cast them, the more mad and sad I become. The only spell I can think of in Dom2 that the AI would sometimes cast poorly was Breath of Winter, and even that could be overcome most of the time by arranging your troops properly. Now, I feel they are making combat less exciting and more predictable by limiting casting to a select group of spells. Even if the AI were to stupidly cast some spells sometimes, it would have an equal effect on both the player and the AI for the most part. I don't see how this decision could possibly result in a better AI or improve combat in any way. One of the charms of combat in Dom2 was that the AI could cast *any* spell, even if not always perfect in its casting, it created a certain degree of unpredictability and excitement in combat. By limiting the AI's casting, you are probably also limiting the spells your own units will cast in combat, except for the 5 you are able to script in the beginning rounds. If the AI never casts Breath of Winter, for example, you could gain an advantage over the AI by scripting BoW for your own units in the opening rounds, knowing that the AI will never cast it for its own units. Does anyone agree with me that this is a poor design decision or am I off base?

It's certainly not the perfect solution, but I have to say I prefer this over the way it was in dom2. If the AI is clueless about the proper use for a spell, it will result in a better AI and less frustrations for players if it simply ignores them.

[okiN]

I tend to agree with quantum_mechani. It's not exactly an ideal solution, but I think it's the lesser of two evils.

[WraithLord]

okiN said:
I tend to agree with quantum_mechani. It's not exactly an ideal solution, but I think it's the lesser of two evils.

So do I, though I think it won't be an issue if this will be modable.

[Arralen]

NO, you can't mod the AI spell list.

And is it really that absolutly devastating saddening horrible that of several dozends, if not over 100 battlefield spells the spell AI is going to ignore maybe 5 or 10?

I don't think so. I would say trust the devs and the testers in this regard - if they found that the game acutally works better this way ...

[ioticus]

Arralen said:
NO, you can't mod the AI spell list.

And is it really that absolutly devastating saddening horrible that of several dozends, if not over 100 battlefield spells the spell AI is going to ignore maybe 5 or 10?

I don't think so. I would say trust the devs and the testers in this regard - if they found that the game acutally works better this way ...

I hope you're right about there being only a handful of spells that the AI will not use. My concern was that there are a large amount of spells that are never used.

[PDF]

I rather agree with the design choice to have some spells not cast by the AI and only left to the players. With the gazillion spells in the game I don't expect any AI to handle spellcasting correctly for all (or even some )

[okiN]

I'm about to present an uncounterable argument for limiting AI spell use.

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/4476/stormmm9.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/9576/storm2dw9.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/5228/storm3hg6.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/3939/storm4tq8.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/8013/storm5ms6.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/8630/storm6oe4.th.jpg
http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/7683/storm7ep3.th.jpg
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8430/storm8cu6.th.jpg

Words cannot describe how I'm feeling right now.

[Endoperez]

okiN said:
I'm about to present an uncounterable argument for limiting AI spell use.

http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8430/storm8cu6.th.jpg

Words cannot describe how I'm feeling right now.

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]


That... Ugh. Well:

Words cannot describe how I'm feeling right now.

and I just observed!

[Agrajag]

okiN said:
I'm about to present an uncounterable argument for limiting AI spell use.

Its is in fact ucounterable.
Sadly though, I just can't stop laughing.