Mod: LA Oceania - seas of blood

[Treant Hugger]

I was hoping to do some modding, and never really satisfied with how Oceania simply disappears in the LA. So I decided to stretch MA Oceania into a new LA nation. I'm interested in your balance opinions, since testing against the AI is fairly pointless.

The general concept is that pushed to the edges of the oceans by R'lyeh, the Capricorns turn to blood magic and welcome demons into their nation.



Troops:
Oceanian Triton - 10g 2r - vanilla
Merman - 10g 3r - vanilla
Wave Warrior - 13g 19r - vanilla
Demonic Triton - 20g 31r - A size three unit to guard against tramplers. Wears a bronze cuirass, so fairly well protected. I'm considering giving them resize 2 to cut down on rcost. Aquatic only.
Bronze Sentinel - 15g 30r - Heavy infantry with castle def bonus.
Pearl Guardian - 65g 47r - Sacred heavy cavalry. Ichtycentuars, so they have recuperation. Lance + magic sword. Also a patrol bonus. These guys are pretty awesome, but you'll probably only ever be able to recruit 2/turn from most forts.
Pearl Gatherer - 20g 10r - Cap only. Wields two magic weapons, one does double to magic beings. High MR
Ichtydevil - 55g 29r - Cap only. Amphibious, size 3. Bronze cuirass and trident. Gain a tail attack when they leave the water. Summonable with national Blood 2 spell.
Sea Fiend - 65g 13r - Cap only. Four armed aquatic size 3 demon. More combat effective and easier to mass than the Ichtydevils, but can't leave the water. Summonable with a Blood 2 national spell. Also shows up as a multihero with F1 & 100% B/W.

Commanders
Merman Scout - 25g 3r - vanilla
Wave Lord - 45g 19r - vanilla
Demonic General - 45g 31r - 10 regular leadership, but 80 undead leadership. Aquatic only.
Pearl Lord - 65g 47r - Only 80 leadership, but is cavalry. Possible thug, I suppose. Sacred. Amphibious.
Merman Priest - 65g 1r - vanilla H1
Bishop Fish - 120g 1r - vanilla H3
Mermage - 175g 1r - vanilla W2N1 100%AWEN
Capricorn - 350g 5r - Vanilla (i.e. same as MA). W2N3 110%AWEN
Black Capricorn - 300g 1r - Cap only. The blood hunters and only guys who can cast the national blood spells. they only ave poorleader but ok undead leadership. B2 W1 200% WEN. They lose a point in every path except blood when they leave the water.

Summons
Devilfish - Aquatic demon, animal. Get 5 for 10 slaves. Research level 1. B2W1. Size 2, just a bite attack, but has 15 strength & 22 hp.
Ichtydevil - Same as above, get 3 for 15 slaves. Level 2 spell, B2W1. Can only be summoned underwater. Good way to get around gold cost, though will still have to pay upkeep.
Sea Fiend - Get 3 for 15 slaves. Level 2 spell, B2W1.
Great Devilfish - Size 3, autocasts twist fate at start of battles, fights with poisoned bite and paralyzing tail. Get 1 for 2 slaves. The trade-off is spending caster-turns to slowly gather better units versus getting 5 at a time with the lesser fish. Level 3 spell.
Infernal Culler - Amphibious flying assassin. Solid thug, but no leadership or casting. Full equipment slots. 30 slaves for one, research level 5. Will need to boost a caster to B3.
Blood Vortex - Amphibious flying thug. Ethereal, size 4, comes with B1 and regenerates/heals when in watershape. Used to be too powerful, but I've not used it since I nerfed it. Available to all nations, but can only be summoned underwater. Need B4 W3, so boosting will be necessary.

I also included a unique pretender in the Dread Vortex. It's a size 6 immortal SC, but has weakened casting by giving it a -2 pathboost in its two starting paths. Also only starts with 1 dominion. Aquatic only and three misc slots. I've made it mindless to protect against R'lyeh's madness dominion.

[Debaser8]

Does bloodhunting/blood magic work underwater? That said, I think it is an interesting idea and they should have some blood magic even if it doesn't work under water. They can just do it on land when they get the chance, but probably need some other stuff as well.

[PriestyMan]

just some quick feedback, after looking at it.
1. you should definitely mention that the only way to bloodhunt uw is to use shift+B since the command doesnt show up normally, so its kinda a bug that allows it.
2. i'm kinda worried that this nation is too good against LA ryleh early on, then isnt very good later game against land nations. Having basically MA oceania's craptastic magic and then some B2 cap only isn't that great. maybe you should add a B random to mermages so that they do get some cheaper bloodhunters. To balance it out, maybe lower the MR of their guys to 11 mainly, not 12, so that ryleh has a chance?

just my 2c from taking a small look

[Squirrelloid]

There are some serious thematic and balance problems here:

Theme
(1) Bloodhunting UW is only possible via an exploit. You aren't supposed to be able to do it.
(2) Bloodspells are not supposed to be castable underwater. Bloodspells which summon aquatic creatures are extremely unthematic.
(3) Giving them the same capricorn as MA as a hire anywhere just makes it feel like an extension of MA rather than a unique nation. Ditch these guys.
(4) Nation needs something more. So they turned to blood magic - shouldn't this have some impact on their social structure beyond just Black Capricorns?

Balance
(1) Black Capricorns are awful. 300g for 5 total paths is a disgrace. And as the only blood mage being capital only really hurts the nation's ability to bloodhunt.

Recommendations:
Thematically the only thing to do with blood is to move them onto land and ditch the aquatic part. Force a coastal start if that's modable.

Black Capricorns: B3W2 + 200% BWEN. No out-of-water penalty for magic (its bad for balance for MA too). Recruit anywhere. Make these guys the linchpin of the nation. Might deserve a slight cost increase to 320g. Give them a cooler name so this doesn't feel like yet another 'its Pangaea, but UW' rip off.

Merman Priest -> Corrupted Merman Priest: Make them B1H1.

Ditch Bishop Fish or similarly make them corrupted. Heck, make them demons. Possessed Bishop Fish: B1H3 amphibious or something like that. Give them cool flavor text.

Mermage: Make them W2B1 + 100% WENB

Capricorn: Ditch, this nation is caught in a downward spiral, no uncorrupted reminders from better days.

Honestly haven't even looked at troops yet, but the nation really needs its theme clearly defined, and then the commanders aligned to fit.

[PriestyMan]

i for one dont mind being able to bloodhunt underwater. i think it makes sense thematically, just say its merslaves or something. I always imagined LA oceania being an uw bloodhunt nation anyways

[WraithLord]

I 2nd Squirrelloid feedback.

I think UW blood hunt is not thematic. blood hunt is about getting and sacrificing human virgins, not cat fish, mergirls or what not.

Using this exploit in MP is really bad form, I wouldn't expect any player to be doing that.

[Sasooli]

Personally I don't see any big thematic problem with UW blood sacrifice. It's thematically different from what the designers originally intended, but that's not necessarily bad.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Using this exploit in MP is really bad form, I wouldn't expect any player to be doing that.

I would think that in any game using this mod, it would be a good idea for the admin to clearly say upfront "This nation relies on an exploit that some players don't mind using and some do. Does anyone mind if we include it?" As long as no-one in that game minds, there's no harm. But surprising people with it may not be a good idea.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Sasooli

Personally I don't see any big thematic problem with UW blood sacrifice. It's thematically different from what the designers originally intended, but that's not necessarily bad.

I would think that in any game using this mod, it would be a good idea for the admin to clearly say upfront "This nation relies on an exploit that some players don't mind using and some do. Does anyone mind if we include it?" As long as no-one in that game minds, there's no harm. But surprising people with it may not be a good idea.

I object more to casting blood spells underwater than bloodhunting underwater.

You may notice none of the current blood spells are useable underwater, and bloodslaves become gems instead of units when in an underwater battle and can't be accessed for casting.

[PriestyMan]

[quote=Squirrelloid;774467]

Originally Posted by Sasooli

Personally I don't see any big thematic problem with UW blood sacrifice. It's thematically different from what the designers originally intended, but that's not necessarily bad.

I object more to casting blood spells underwater than bloodhunting underwater.

You may notice none of the current blood spells are useable underwater, and bloodslaves become gems instead of units when in an underwater battle and can't be accessed for casting.

I dont get why this doesnt work. Just imagine if you will, a blood mage, floating in the deep ocean, over an altar. He sacrifices the mermaid, and is suddenly literally swimming in blood, the magical energy of the blood is surrounding him. i feel like that's almost *more* effective cause he is swimming in blood, not just standing over it.

[llamabeast]

Awesome first post! Not only "modding sounds interesting", but "I've done a whole mod including sprites"!

I haven't had a chance to play with this mod yet, but personally I have no problem at all with the underwater blood hunting. Most nations aren't meant to do it - but maybe LA Oceania has struck a deal with demons to accept mergirl blood in place of human virgins. Why not?