OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Adept

This is a game for adults. Fundamentalists who insist on being insulted by everything should feel free not to play.

"This is a game for adults. Grown children who insist on being insulted by everything should feel free not to play."

Fixed that for you. As a politically-incorrect conservative, I often find that liberals and secularists lead the way when it comes to being offended by everything. But let's play it safe and leave the reference open to possibility. If you're easily offended -- whatever the cause of your offense -- Dominions 3 is probably not the game for you.

Yes, I'm an evangelical Christian. You'd probably call me a fundamentalist, although that term is often misused. Wikipedia has a pretty good article about Christian fundamentalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

As controversial as Christian fundamentalism has become, our actual beliefs are very simple. Basically, we believe the same things that Christians have believed for 2000 years. We believe that the Bible is true, and Jesus is who He claimed to be. Simple enough.

Gregstrom nailed it back in July:

I often think people use religion as an excuse to hate, rather than a cause. In the secular world, similar hatred and violence occur in the name of animal liberation or nationalism.

I agree completely. Anyone who hates "in the name of Christ" is not doing it because Jesus told him to hate, but is actually misusing our Lord to cover for his own evil. Haters are haters, no matter what their excuses might be....

If anyone's curious, the path to playing Dominions 3 as a Christian is also very simple. I just remind myself that it's a game, not reality.

[Adept]

[quote=SlipperyJim;639821]

Originally Posted by Adept

This is a game for
If anyone's curious, the path to playing Dominions 3 as a Christian is also very simple. I just remind myself that it's a game, not reality.

Exactly

[Tifone]

I really don't see the link between animal liberation and hatred/violence ^_^ Quite the opposite btw. And about secularists being much more easily offended than many religious people, I think you're totally wrong - both historically and in current society. But I think we're going faaaar off topic.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Anyone who hates "in the name of Christ" is not doing it because Jesus told him to hate, but is actually misusing our Lord to cover for his own evil.

Before starting to answer, I would like to say that I'm agnostic and I respect everyone's belief until it becomes dangerous for my, or other's people, freedom and happiness and life. So I got no prejudice at all against any religion, I've got many friends having lots of different beliefs/disbeliefs so I'm not attacking your point from an hate-mongering point of view. Actually, I'm not attacking you at all, just reading an historical book for me, an Holy Book for you.

Said that, I ask you to just read, just for the love of talking, debating and learning from each other:

Jesus says (and I'm just quoting):

"If anyone comes to me and does not HATE his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." [Luke, 14:26]

"I tell you that to EVERYONE WHO HAS, MORE WILL BE GIVEN, but as for THE ONE WHO HAS NOTHING, EVEN WHAT HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY. But those enemies of mine who DID NOT WANT ME TO BE KING OVER THEM - BRING THEM HERE AND KILL THEM IN FRONT OF ME." [Luke 19:26-27]

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I DID NOT COME TO BRING PEACE, BUT A SWORD. FOR I HAVE COME TO TURN A MAN AGAINS HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, A DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW, A MAN'S ENEMIES will be THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD." [Matthew 10:34-36]

This of course, not to go into the Old Testament, as you were talking just about Jesus.

If you think I'm decontestualizing or exploiting these passages, feel free of course to read the entire chapter.

Peace

[JaghataiKhan]

No problem with all that. This is why believe both OT,NT and the third newbie, the Quran are just made up by religious leaders to hypnotize the masses.

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/arss_1.html

A parody chick tract with direct quotes from the Bible. Never thought Moses would capture 32000 virgins and SACRIFICE 32 of them as a burnt offering. Burn 32 virgins alive. Moshe.

Perhaps Gath's blood magic is a subtle hint to this...

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by Tifone

I really don't see the link between animal liberation and hatred/violence ^_^ Quite the opposite btw. And about secularists being much more easily offended than many religious people, I think you're totally wrong - both historically and in current society. But I think we're going faaaar off topic.

All across America, Christianity is being challenged in the courts on a daily basis. Michael Newdow and his quixotic challenges against the Pledge of Allegiance come to mind. (And the Pledge isn't even specifically Christian, just generally theist.) Secularists sue to prevent schoolkids from praying. Teachers confiscate Bibles. Religious monuments are constantly under legal threat.

The town of Las Cruces, NM (Spanish for "The Crosses") was sued because the town logo has three crosses on it. Thankfully, the lawsuit has been dismissed, although the plaintiffs may attempt to appeal to the Supreme Court:
http://www.lcsun-news.com/ci_10480497

Despite our whining, American Christians actually have it easy. We just have to put up with lawsuits and social pressure. Christians in other countries are literally in danger of being killed for their faith. See The Voice of the Martyrs for more details about anti-Christian persecution around the globe.

Historically, religious believers have done most of the persecuting. That's shameful, but also true. However, secularists have turned the tables these days, and faith is in the crosshairs.

Originally Posted by Tifone

Before starting to answer, I would like to say that I'm agnostic and I respect everyone's belief until it becomes dangerous for my, or other's people, freedom and happiness and life. So I got no prejudice at all against any religion, I've got many friends having lots of different beliefs/disbeliefs so I'm not attacking your point from an hate-mongering point of view. Actually, I'm not attacking you at all, just reading an historical book for me, an Holy Book for you.

Sure, understood. I don't think you hate me. (You don't even know me!) It's much more likely that you misunderstand the message of Christ. So let's talk about it.

Originally Posted by Tifone

Said that, I ask you to just read, just for the love of talking, debating and learning from each other:

Jesus says (and I'm just quoting):

"If anyone comes to me and does not HATE his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE." [Luke, 14:26]

When interpreting Scripture, context is key. In Luke 14, Jesus was telling His followers about the cost of being a disciple. He wanted to make it very clear to them that His demands were absolute. There should be no possibility of divided loyalties, because Jesus must be the Lord of your life. Reading the whole chapter makes this point quite clear.

Basically, Christ's message here is not that we have to literally hate our families. Rather, His message is that we must love Him so much that we are willing to sacrifice anything (or anyone) for Him.

It's also instructive to note that the overall message of the Bible is extremely pro-family. Parents are told to love our children. Children are told to love and obey their parents. Husbands and wives are instructed to love each other so completely that they become "one flesh" [Genesis 2:24]. One of the last acts Jesus performed before He died on the Cross was to make sure that His mother would have someone to care for her [John 19:25-27]. When taken in context, the idea that Jesus wants us to hate our families is plainly false.

Originally Posted by Tifone

"I tell you that to EVERYONE WHO HAS, MORE WILL BE GIVEN, but as for THE ONE WHO HAS NOTHING, EVEN WHAT HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN AWAY. But those enemies of mine who DID NOT WANT ME TO BE KING OVER THEM - BRING THEM HERE AND KILL THEM IN FRONT OF ME." [Luke 19:26-27]

This quote is taken out of context. Jesus was telling a parable in Luke 19, the Parable of the Ten Minas. Those words you quoted are spoken by Jesus, but they're actually the words of the king in the parable.

Originally Posted by Tifone

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I DID NOT COME TO BRING PEACE, BUT A SWORD. FOR I HAVE COME TO TURN A MAN AGAINS HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, A DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW, A MAN'S ENEMIES will be THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD." [Matthew 10:34-36]

This of course, not to go into the Old Testament, as you were talking just about Jesus.

As with the quote from Luke 14, Jesus is trying to warn His followers about the high cost of following Him. The Gospel divides people based on belief. Those who believe Jesus are fundamentally different from those who do not believe. Our priorities are different. Our worldview is different. Our lives are different. When Jesus is Lord, everything changes.

I have experienced the truth of Jesus's warning in my own life. My parents and I are divided on the Gospel. We maintain a cordial relationship as best we can, but our efforts aren't always successful. You might as well ask a Windows user and a Linux fan to share the same PC.

By the way, please don't make the mistake of thinking that Christians ignore the Old Testament. Ignoring the Old Testament is just modern-day Marcionism. The introduction to John's Gospel makes it crystal-clear: Jesus is the Word of God. Therefore, we have to take the whole Word if we accept Jesus as Lord. Ignoring the Hebrew Scriptures won't do.

That said, it is also important to understand that Christians interpret the Old Testament in the light of Jesus. He is the "lens" through which we read the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus is the culmination of the Jewish rituals of sacrifice, the perfect High Priest, and the fulfillment of the Mosaic law. So we don't ignore the Hebrew Scriptures, but we do understand them in a very different way from most Jews.

Shalom.

[JaghataiKhan]

By the way, please don't make the mistake of thinking that Christians ignore the Old Testament. Ignoring the Old Testament is just modern-day Marcionism. The introduction to John's Gospel makes it crystal-clear: Jesus is the Word of God. Therefore, we have to take the whole Word if we accept Jesus as Lord. Ignoring the Hebrew Scriptures won't do.

Ok. Care to read the comic ink I gave you then? Old Testament god is f***ing scary.

[SlipperyJim]

Originally Posted by JaghataiKhan

Ok. Care to read the comic ink I gave you then? Old Testament god is f***ing scary.

I'm happy to answer questions about my faith, but I'm not going to read comics by some organization called the Luciferian Liberation Front. Life is too short to spend on such pastimes....

That said, if you have a serious question, I'll do my best to answer it. In answer to your claim that "Old Testament god is f***ing scary," I can only respond that you have underestimated the situation. God can be very scary, even in the New Testament. Read some apocalyptic prophecies....

God is perfectly holy. Humans are not. An imperfect creature standing in the presence of pure holiness should be scared. It's the logical reaction.

God is also perfectly loving. That's why He sent His Son to save us. By accepting Christ's sacrifice, we can be cleansed of our sins. God makes us holy, and He adopts us as His children. When we are in Christ, we have nothing to fear anymore.

Think about a speed trap on the highway. When you see the patrol car, how do you respond? If you've been driving a bit too fast, you probably experience an adrenaline surge. If you were really speeding, you're probably terrified. Guilt is afraid of justice. But if you weren't speeding, then you have nothing to fear. You notice the officer, but you aren't worried.

The stakes are higher with God than with any highway patrolman.

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

All across America, Christianity is being challenged in the courts on a daily basis. Michael Newdow and his quixotic challenges against the Pledge of Allegiance come to mind. (And the Pledge isn't even specifically Christian, just generally theist.) Secularists sue to prevent schoolkids from praying. Teachers confiscate Bibles. Religious monuments are constantly under legal threat.

Despite our whining, American Christians actually have it easy. We just have to put up with lawsuits and social pressure. Christians in other countries are literally in danger of being killed for their faith. See The Voice of the Martyrs for more details about anti-Christian persecution around the globe.

Historically, religious believers have done most of the persecuting. That's shameful, but also true. However, secularists have turned the tables these days, and faith is in the crosshairs.

Shalom.

Despite the Christians "whining", most of those are not attempts to persecute Christians, but to keep non-Christians or non-theists from being required to fund or participate in Christian ritual. No one wants to prevent kids from praying in school. The suits have largely been against organized school/government sponsored prayers. The religious monuments under threat are ones on government land or funded by the taxpayers. I don't know about teachers taking away Bibles, but a quick Google pulls up nothing reputable. Perhaps under the same conditions they'd take away any non school books? Disruption, reading during class etc?

And as an occasional atheist, I do find it a little annoying to pledge "under God". It's easiest to understand with a little substitution. How would you feel if you (or your child) had to repeat "under Allah" or to be as generic "under the Goddess"?
And that time honored pledge that it's such a horror to even consider changing? The "under God" part dates only to the 50s. It was added to distinguish us from the godless commies.

It's always amused me that Christians get to play the victim card in the US where they are in so many ways so dominant. Far more societal and political influence than almost anywhere else in the developed world, but anytime they can't get the government to force their beliefs on the rest of us, someone will cry "persecution"


Even in the rest of the world, most of the persecution of Christians is done by other religions. (And there is plenty of persecution of other religions by Christians as well.) The largest exception would be the remaining Communist regimes, particularly China, where they'll persecute anyone who doesn't toe the party line anyway. Religions are only one target.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Secularists sue to prevent schoolkids from praying. Teachers confiscate Bibles.

My friend, the public school of a lay state is a place to /Learn/. I don't say it, it's in the laws of the state you accepted to live in. School is a place to learn maths, english, geography and science. Not Creationism, which is one religious, non-scientific thing. Not praying, because there are places, not of the state, for doing this as a freedom the state consider innate into you and nobody can remove. And not having Bible, because in a school a Bible is just out of place, as it would be everything else not related to teaching to children (from a Superman comic book to Playboy sorry, joking)

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Basically, Christ's message here is not that we have to literally hate our families. Rather, His message is that we must love Him so much that we are willing to sacrifice anything (or anyone) for Him.

Auch, excuse me but I think no one, NO ONE, could ask to an healthy, sane, person, to sacrifice (I know of course in a non literal way) the people he loves the most in his life, daughters, wives, parents, to a person claiming (you said it) to be God, a person never appeared to me, lived (if lived) 2000 years ago. Not even if they believe in something else than him.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

Jesus was telling a parable in Luke 19, the Parable of the Ten Minas. Those words you quoted are spoken by Jesus, but they're actually the words of the king in the parable.

True, I'm sorry if it wasn't clear it was a Parable. But you should go further talking. The parable is something Jesus uses in that occasion to talk about the Reign of God, as it is said in that paragraph. The king is God, clearly, without any need of interpretation. You have read the chapter. "Kill whoever doesn't accept me", in the mouth of Jesus - who IS God himself - doesn't sound any better thinking at it as a parable and "not literal".

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

As with the quote from Luke 14, Jesus is trying to warn His followers about the high cost of following Him. The Gospel divides people based on belief. Those who believe Jesus are fundamentally different from those who do not believe.

Well, maybe that is my main problem with the whole thing. Religion (not only yours) divides people (families! The Bible itself says so) of today's complex and ever-changing world, on world views that are at the best, what? 2000 years old.
You may say they are still valid. I read the Old Testament, or the Quran and I say no, the world is changed, the world MUST CONTINUE CHANGING to go far from these world views of DIVISION and HATRED, not to talk about lapidation and mass murder. Those words cannot have been inspired by a perfect and loving god for me. There must be a mistake, those are the words of a tyrant of cavemen. I just can't accept it.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

That said, it is also important to understand that Christians interpret the Old Testament in the light of Jesus. [...] So we don't ignore the Hebrew Scriptures, but we do understand them in a very different way from most Jews.

Please, tell me how the light of Jesus can make you understand in a (as rational as possible) way, this (almost random quote):

"Now KILL ALL THE BOYS AMONG THE LITTLE ONES. And KILL EVERY WOMAN WHO AS SLEPT WITH A MAN, but SAVE FOR YOURSELF every GIRL OF YOUNG AGE who has never slept with a man." [Numbers 31:17-18]

It is Moses (one of the greater prophets of your religion) which says in the God-inspired Bible what to do to the prisoners of a war against a city, a war which is THE VENGEANCE OF GOD, Numbers 31:3
You talk about the lens of Jesus, my friend, but I fear no lens can let me accept those fearful, full of hate words, in the mouth of a God someone believes in. (Note, the WORDS, not the BELIEVER himself)

Still, of course, nothing against you. A hug and my best wishes.

[SlipperyJim]

So. Many. Responses! I'm going to skip over the political stuff, because politics is being talked to death these days....

Originally Posted by Tifone

Auch, excuse me but I think no one, NO ONE, could ask to an healthy, sane, person, to sacrifice (I know of course in a non literal way) the people he loves the most in his life, daughters, wives, parents, to a person claiming (you said it) to be God, a person never appeared to me, lived (if lived) 2000 years ago. Not even if they believe in something else than him.

If that person was able to prove that He was God, then you'd better believe I'd listen to Him. I'd be nuts to ignore Him!

Here's the main point: God must be first for those who claim to believe in Him. He gave us His life. We must give Him our lives.

Here's the other point: If my parents do not believe in Jesus as Lord, they will not experience eternal life. There will be no happy ending for them. When they die, they will suffer for eternity. That's bad. Under the circumstances, I would be a poor son indeed if I stood to the side and allowed my parents to go to Hell without making every effort to prevent it. I must be a witness to them. However, my witnessing will cause division between us, at least in the short term.

So what should I do? Should I stop witnessing to preserve short-term peace, while knowing that the long-term effects will be horrible beyond belief? Or should I risk some short-term conflict in order to influence my parents toward salvation?

Real-world analogy: If your parents were smoking six packs of cigarettes every day, would you try to get them to quit? What if your parents were already showing signs of poor health -- lung cancer, emphysema, asthma -- would that encourage you toward greater efforts on their behalf? But trying to get them to quit smoking will be tense! They might resent you for interfering in their lives. What now?

The dilemma is that I cannot witness to them if I allow our relationship to become completely estranged. Furthermore, the Bible tells me very clearly that I must honor my parents. So I must walk a middle ground. I try to maintain a cordial relationship with my parents (including frequent contact with my kids, their grandkids), but I also maintain my witness. It's not easy, but few worthwhile things are easy.

Originally Posted by Tifone

True, I'm sorry if it wasn't clear it was a Parable. But you should go further talking. The parable is something Jesus uses in that occasion to talk about the Reign of God, as it is said in that paragraph. The king is God, clearly, without any need of interpretation. You have read the chapter. "Kill whoever doesn't accept me", in the mouth of Jesus - who IS God himself - doesn't sound any better thinking at it as a parable and "not literal".

When you carry the parable into the Kingdom of God -- which is the valid interpretation -- you also pick up some other context. The new factor to consider is grace. God doesn't want you to perish. He wants to save you. In fact, He wants to save you so badly that He sent His Son to die for you.

He has also taken every step to make sure that you know the stakes. He has given us His Word. He has ordered His followers to tell you about Him. You cannot claim ignorance. In fact, since you seem to know more about Scripture than many believers, you especially cannot claim ignorance.

Given all of that, what then should God do with an unbeliever at the final judgment? Salvation can only be found in God. In other words, the only way to save you is to join you to Himself. Do you want Him to do that against your will? What kind of loving God would bind people to Himself for all eternity without their consent? That's not love, it's slavery. So He lets you go to destruction. He doesn't enjoy it -- and neither should His followers -- but there's no other way. You've chosen to separate yourself from God, so He honors your choice.

Sadly, separation from God is not the neverending party that unbelievers want to believe.

Originally Posted by Tifone

Well, maybe that is my main problem with the whole thing. Religion (not only yours) divides people (families! The Bible itself says so) of today's complex and ever-changing world, on world views that are at the best, what? 2000 years old.
You may say they are still valid. I read the Old Testament, or the Quran and I say no, the world is changed, the world MUST CONTINUE CHANGING to go far from these world views of DIVISION and HATRED, not to talk about lapidation and mass murder. Those words cannot have been inspired by a perfect and loving god for me. There must be a mistake, those are the words of a tyrant of cavemen. I just can't accept it.

A divided world was never part of God's plan. He created humanity to live in unity with Him and each other. But we screwed it up. When the Bible speaks about division and hatred, those aren't good things. Division and hatred are the consequences of human sin. The Bible is just being honest about them.

Even when the Bible commands division or hatred (for example, the conquest of the Promised Land), it's a reaction to sin. God commanded the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites because of the Caananites' appalling sins. He also wanted to protect the Israelites -- His chosen people -- from being led astray. Unfortunately, His people didn't obey Him as well as they should have, so they were led astray, and the consequences were disastrous.

Originally Posted by Tifone

Please, tell me how the light of Jesus can make you understand in a (as rational as possible) way, this (almost random quote):

"Now KILL ALL THE BOYS AMONG THE LITTLE ONES. And KILL EVERY WOMAN WHO AS SLEPT WITH A MAN, but SAVE FOR YOURSELF every GIRL OF YOUNG AGE who has never slept with a man." [Numbers 31:17-18]

It is Moses (one of the greater prophets of your religion) which says in the God-inspired Bible what to do to the prisoners of a war against a city, a war which is THE VENGEANCE OF GOD, Numbers 31:3
You talk about the lens of Jesus, my friend, but I fear no lens can let me accept those fearful, full of hate words, in the mouth of a God someone believes in. (Note, the WORDS, not the BELIEVER himself)

The pagan natives of the Promised Land were a very wicked people. The conquest of Israel was so thorough that we don't know too much about them, but we do know that they practiced human sacrifice. And that children were among the sacrifices. The full extent of their iniquities have been lost to history, but whatever they had done, it was so bad that God decided they couldn't be redeemed. They were too wicked to save. Just as a surgeon cuts out a tumor to heal a person, sometimes God destroys sin rather than allow it to spread.

Again, human sin was not part of God's original plan for us. And when He returns, we won't have to worry about it anymore. The lion will lie down with the lamb, and all suffering will be no more than a bad memory.

Originally Posted by Tifone

Still, of course, nothing against you. A hug and my best wishes.

Same here.