OT: The ambiance and setting (part 3)

[Omnirizon]

part 1: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=41273&page=5
part 2: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=41368&page=4

MAKING A GAME ----- _~/PART THREE\~_: the setting

the setting WILL be 16th-17th century history. this is a fruitful setting due to the clash of weaponry and military styles happening at this point; polearms, maces, swords, bows, crossbows, firearms, cavalry, cannon, were all being experimented with and used together in ways that no other time in history has ever seen. the new technologies in metallurgy breathed a last bit of life into armors and older styles of handheld weaponry and new developments in crossbows and experiments with firearms changed the role of both infantry and cavalry. heavy polearms were developed (for protecting the slow firearms and bowmen), new styles and faster swords where designed (for finding the weak spots in the new carbonized steel armors that couldn't be hacked at), and more maces with new designs for not glancing off armor where put into use (for delivering impact damage against more resilient armor and fighting in the new styles and formations with cavalry who now used mobility and close range rather than shocks and charge due to better missile weapon technology). cannon also was developed, and large standing armies combined with siege warfare became the norm. sea battles took on new twists with new cannon, sail, and ship design technology. All in all it was a very rich time for the combination of weaponry and military styles as humans were experimenting with and attempting to adapt old methods to the new technologies.

Very few fantasy games that I know of actually place their settings in the 16th century. This is a time of more standardized warfare, less enchantment and magic, less frontier. The time of protestants, rationalists, humanists, Francis Bacon and the new forms of knowledge and philosophy. Really, the only games I can think of that will use this setting to any degree are the Final Fantasy series. its mixture of magic and high technology are the perfect fit with the clash of the old and new that was happening in this time, and the rest of FF's setting, the dress, the styles, the towns and rhetoric, all follow suit.

My current idea is to pull some dominions nations into this setting. Since there will be no dom4, it isn't like there is any danger of awkwardly overlapping; there's a little room for creative license. Maybe call it "4rth Age" or something. I don't want this to simply be like Heroes of Might and Magic in dom setting though. So it can't be just like "there's this unit and this unit and blah blah blah", rather, how would the nations look in Late Renaissance garb?

the humans have mostly taken over.

disenchantment, skepticism of church.

the old 'sacreds' (which tended to be non human too) now exist in fewer numbers, maybe arn't sacred, are even disdained.

non-humans are mistreated rather than revered.

what else? the 'fairy and fey' nations would have to all but disappear. oddly enough, their real life national counterparts had much lesser roles in world affairs during that time too. i'm having a hard time figuring what to do with nations like Vanheim et al.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

My current idea is to pull some dominions nations into this setting. Since there will be no dom4, it isn't like there is any danger of awkwardly overlapping; there's a little room for creative license.

Can you actually do this? Have you read the copyright/trademark thread (which start as discussion about releasing source code of Dom3 if it becomes obsolete)?

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

Can you actually do this? Have you read the copyright/trademark thread (which start as discussion about releasing source code of Dom3 if it becomes obsolete)?

unless they've copyrighted history and mythology, of course I can. all concepts used are history and myths, down to the names themselves. The Monkey people of Bandar Log, and the _name_ Bandar Log as the name associated with the monkey people, is itself actually taken from another classic narrative: The Jungle Book. The whole 'Mount Kailasa' narrative, and even what a 'Markata' is, and the 'demonic' nation of Lanka. These are all things drawn almost wholesale from actual history and mythology. Saying I couldn't use them would be like saying there is a University of KO teaching classic literature, mythology, and folklore and that NO one can use the mythology and folklore it teaches, that it owns it. The mass majority of the content in Dominions is public domain.

All dominions has done is placed this content in a war game setting with a particular game system that it can claim as its own. there are no unique characters and only some very loose unique storylines with some unique units. however part of the whole point of this '4th age' is to move into a new type of game in a new time setting were I would be outside of the unique portions of the dominions system and narratives and free to simply draw upon the bricolage of history and myth it has already used. I wouldn't use unit names or descriptions because they would be unapplicable to my game. I'm simply imagining with the same historical and mythological content that Dominions has already imagined upon, but in new settings, namley the 16th-17th centuries. I'm not using descriptions, the system, nor the images. Outside of that, dominions doesn't have much unique content, not even its name associations. Only a very unique concept that using and staying close to open content like history and mythology can create an engaging world. But such a concept itself isn't really copyrightable.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

Only a very unique concept that using and staying close to open content like history and mythology can create an engaging world. But such a concept itself isn't really copyrightable.

My understanding is that you can take the same concept and build from that, but you can't copy the original. Neither Shrapnel Games or Illwinter should allow unrelated projects (that aren't direct homage, perhaps not even then) to incorporate such important parts of what makes Dominions what it is. I'm not sure if it's protected by copyright, but I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to just copy it like that.

Infernos, nation of people whose ancestors cross-bred with fire elementals would be fine, but Abysia, nation of people who were created to be slaves to the original Abysians but out-bred their creators wouldn't.

Thing is, even though Bandar Log is a generic name, castes as different species of monkeys isn't a generic idea. Caelum as a name for flying creatures isn't anything special, but Caelians as winged zarathustran people divided into three tribes (martial, seraph mages, harab necromancers) is.

Pangaea is pretty much conglomeration of minotaurs, centaurs, dryads, panii etc from Greek myths, so you might have a case with Pangaea, as long as you don't include the combination of LA Pangaea lore. Iron as a relatively new invention, black dryads and dryad hoplites, centaurs as the civilized fighters and minotaurs as the sacred keepers of ancient traditions, Panii being the most massively built etc... you could take some of these features, but not all.

[Omnirizon]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

My understanding is that you can take the same concept and build from that, but you can't copy the original. Neither Shrapnel Games or Illwinter should allow unrelated projects (that aren't direct homage, perhaps not even then) to incorporate such important parts of what makes Dominions what it is. I'm not sure if it's protected by copyright, but I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to just copy it like that.

Infernos, nation of people whose ancestors cross-bred with fire elementals would be fine, but Abysia, nation of people who were created to be slaves to the original Abysians but out-bred their creators wouldn't.

Thing is, even though Bandar Log is a generic name, castes as different species of monkeys isn't a generic idea. Caelum as a name for flying creatures isn't anything special, but Caelians as winged zarathustran people divided into three tribes (martial, seraph mages, harab necromancers) is.

Pangaea is pretty much conglomeration of minotaurs, centaurs, dryads, panii etc from Greek myths, so you might have a case with Pangaea, as long as you don't include the combination of LA Pangaea lore. Iron as a relatively new invention, black dryads and dryad hoplites, centaurs as the civilized fighters and minotaurs as the sacred keepers of ancient traditions, Panii being the most massively built etc... you could take some of these features, but not all.

I think the species of monkeys as castes is drawn _exactly_ from the mythology and literature of the Ramayana; it isn't dominions unique at all.

You have a point on _how_ the Caelian tribes are split up, or using Pan piecemeal but not in whole. However, going into a new time period I wouldn't be interested in simply reusing this stuff, I'd want to imagine how it would have changed. The closest I'd ever come to using their whole unique categorizations might be in sort of using the history of dominions as history. I'm not interested in copying their content at all, I'm really hoping to create new content inspired by the trajectory of Dominions.

I'm not sure about your whole Abysian point. They are an odd nation in that they are fantasy, rather than mythology, built. Their backstory concept isn't anything unique to history though. I'm just not sure. If any nation might raise copyright trouble on attempting to draw content from into a 16th century setting, it would be them.

If for any reason I would have to come up with some shade of a story (like Infernos) I would simply drop the whole idea; that's just too lame. It would be like having to come up with a shade of a concept: like making some Star Trek spinoff called "Galaxy Trek" or something, with the "Kringons" who weild "Battleteks". It smacks of everything I despise. I have no hang up on using the Dominions world, I really don't care. I just am much more interested in doing the coding and making the game rather than spending lots of time trying to find something to base it off of.

I have a half completed world base already in mind, but all of the world and its races were really just different perspectives of humanness or human history anyway; I was finding it very hard to actually imagine something that was different from what is humanlike. With that problem, I thought I might as well use the dominions stuff since it pretty much embraces all the humanlikeness in mythology, but push it into a time period not really touched upon in dominions. I really thought the player base would enjoy that; rather than be a bunch of troglodytes hung up on copyrights.

If anyone has a problem with me using Dominions stuff, then screw it, I won't. As I said I have no concern with making a 'Dominions' game, I just want to make a game and since I'm part of the Dominions community I thought people would enjoy that. It's not like I'm trying to make something to sell here. It's free, as in freedom, and like free beer

[johan osterman]

Originally Posted by Omnirizon

[I think the species of monkeys as castes is drawn _exactly_ from the mythology and literature of the Ramayana; it isn't dominions unique at all.
..

You are underestimating the amount of original work by Kristoffer. There isn't that much details on monkey nations in indian myth, or at least not that much that has entered into dominions. A fair bit of it is Kristoffer utilisimg human indian society on Bandar Log. Bandar Log were put into being due to a single sentence in the book travels to Cathay by Swedish historian Dick Harrisson, that mentioned an indian myth of a monkey kingdom. As far as I know there is no systematic treatment of the monkey kingdom in Ramayana, certainly none where various species of monkeys and apes makes up different castes. No mention of tiger riding white markatas. No levitating Gurus. No suggestion that serpent kings or devas ruled over the monkeys. The same sort of added stuff is extant in all nations. Many of them have strong counterparts in history and myth, but all of them have significant fluff added and changed in them.

I don't think Kristoffer would mind if you uses dom content for a roguelike, but I feel your characterisation of Kristoffers input into the dominions nations is misguided at best. Reading you posts it sounds like all these nations were just waiting to be plucked out of obscurity, whole cloth.

[Aezeal]

hmmm he could just make new nations based on nations that existed at that time.. since he seems to want to eliminate magic too it would pretty much be very different than dominions nations as long as he gave them different names. While dom3 has original content which he shouldn't touch it can't be forbidden to base nations on the same nations of old that KO did

[Soyweiser]

I also think it is possible, as long as you just get inspired by the nations. And not copy anything. I think the following would be acceptable for example:

Abyssia, a nation of strong people who live close to a group of active volcanoes. They have harnessed the steam power of these volcanoes to power their large smithies. (Which is a bit more steampunk, but that is also very like FF). Their people are strong and well armoured, can withstand high heat. But they lack gunpowder weapons, and other ranged weaponry (gunpowder and bowstrings tend to ignite in the high volcano heat).

In earlier days there also lived a group of intelligent half man half dinosaur people who where accustomed to the intense heat of the lava flows. Averaging at two and half meters tall, with dark black and red scales, these non-humans where the ideal inhabitants of the caves surrounding the volcanoes.

The early Abyssians regarded them as half-gods with control over the volcanoes, and offered themselves as slaves to them. Eventually this led to interbreeding. And now the half-dinosaurs are all but extinct. But most of the abyssians have some strange features, such as little body hair, darkened skin, and an tendency to develop horns and scales. Some even have tails and cloven hoofs as feat.

The abyssians where a peaceful and hard-working tribe. Taking pride in creating ornamental clothing out of metal, using the ore and heat which was so abundant in their region.

All this changed when the explorer Dante Alighieri arrived in the main underground volcano city of the abyssians. He had been found in the wilderness, malnourished and running a dangerous fever. The abyssians tended to him as best as they could, but the hot climate, and the lack of proper medicine quickly took his toll. And the Abyssian high dragon (king) ordered his finest guards to escort the sick Alighieri to the nearest non-abyssian trading post.

After weeks of fighting his high fever, Alighieri finally fought of his terrible disease. But he was changed forever, for in his fevers dreams he had seen the devil himself. They had dragged him to hell itself, where they used heat and strange rituals to torture him further. Eventually he wrote a book about his travels, and the country of Abyssia was described in the "Inferno" chapter. The "Purgatorio" and "Paradiso" chapters described his visits to the countries of Pangaea and Caelum.

When the Dante's inferno was finally read by the holy church, they saw it as a sign of god and started a crusade against the Abyssians. Army after army was send towards the southern lands to cleanse it of the unholy 'demons'. At first these wars went well for the crusaders, the Abyssians where unaware of the threat, and had little time to prepare. But after a few years of fighting, the tide turned on the crusaders. Using the iron and lava to create superior arms and armour, the Abyssians fought a successful campaign against the invaders. And in the end, going on a crusade was considered to be a death sentence.

But the Abyssians had changed forever. No longer peaceful and creative, they had become bitter, vengeful and warlike. Using lava flows as death-traps, and enslaving and torturing invaders. Many ex-crusaders now work in the heated underground cities of the Abyssians, mining ever more ore for the hungry Abyssian warmachine.

This was three hundred years ago. And there has been war ever since. Not always as grand and open as the crusades during the dark ages. But border clashes and hatred between the two people is still very common.

Note: Yeah I was bored. And I got inspiration. Of course it isn't totally a dom3 abyssia version. As you could argue that they are a bit to 'dwarf' like because they have a lot of smiths and metal weapons. And they are back to the roots of EA abysia, having strongly armoured infantry.

But I thought the usage of slaves as labour would have a bit of blood magic feel in it. And the non-human roots would give it the devil roots.

[thejeff]

You might also have problems if you take all/many of the dominions nations and use them together, even if each is changed enough that it wouldn't be an issue on it's own.

On the other hand I'm not sure how Dominions gets away with illithids and aboleths.

[Endoperez]

I wouldn't mind having a d different game set in the Dominions universe, and I'd like to create some content set in it sometime in the future (3d shorts, trailer-style, or something). It's just that it isn't as easy as you think, and it'd be a pity if (some of) your work went to waste because Shrapnel was forced to take action. The secret Illwinter project might be rpg set in the Dominions universe, for all we know, or they might have plans for the future of Dominions.



The time period is good, but if you're toning down the Dominions influences there's too little to go by.

Will there be magic? Will there be armies? Will there be sieges? Will there be monsters?


Since this is also athmosphere, how will in-game traveling be implemented? How long will it take if you just walk from a city to another? Let's say that they're relatively close to each other but not nearby; "three days' walk". Will you require food, shelter? If there's a river, can the character just walk through it, or will it be dangerous some way?