Scouting/Recon

[vyrago]

Hi everyone, just wondering some good tactics/techniques for employing scout troops and scout vehicles?

Mostly, I send them ahead and they get killed. how can I employ the scouts to be stealthy and hopefully spot out some enemy before dying?

do scout vehicles get any advantage to spotting or being stealthy? (cuz it sure doesnt seem like it)

[RERomine]

I'll start with the easy part. Scouts and scout/recon vehicles have no special ability that allows them to see enemy units any better or faster than any other similar type unit. The names given to them are more associated with their roles than anything special, i.e., jeep and scout jeep are the same thing and spot the same way.

Now on to how to use them or more specifically, how I use them. Others might do things differently. If the battle is long enough, you can send out infantry scouts in advance of your forces. Since they are size 0 and infantry squads are size 1, they will more often than not spot the enemy before getting spotted. You can't move the scouts up too fast, however. Move at least one hex less than their maximum speed. Anything moving fast gets spotted easier.

If the battle is relatively short, 20 turns or less, I use my infantry scouts to cover flanks or areas where I don't have many units. I use a typically use a 100x100 map so 20 turns is short for that size, IMHO. Should you see the enemy moving where you don't have troops, you can shift in reserves, gunships, what have you or just let them go past. Depends on what might be in your rear area you don't want them to get to.

With scout/recon vehicles, mine get popped, too. They are just a quick way to find out if the path is clear before more important stuff gets there. Being smaller in size than a tank, they might just survive and you just retreat them out. They did what they were supposed to do, find the enemy.

In campaigns, I usually take scouts out of support points since they do get clobbered a lot. If you do have them in your core and they get more experience, they will spot better, but that applies to any unit.

[Imp]

Scout units get no bonus for being scouts apart from do normaly com with plus 3 on exp mor. If you are lucky they may see fractionally better than other units but assume not. Foot scouts are harder to see as they are normally size 0 & scout vehicles size 2 are your best bet.
Requires a bit of practice but judge the point of contact & get there quickly unseen. Now generally either stay put or move very slowly seeing & being seen are modified by the units speed stationary being the best.
You can use individually on a hill but a MG or ATGM could probably do just as well, otherwise teams or working with other units so someone sees the firer. If they are the target probably to busy staying alive to see who shot.
Scout vehicles I tend to use more for finding the main thrust of the attack, looking more for vehicles if see infantry thats a bonus but its probably time to leave. Again rush ahead & park in cover on the edge of woods etc. They need a safe exit route but reduce weapon range with Y key or Op Filter & so long as they remain stationary & dont fire should be safe at distances over a KM from detection by vehicles. Stay as long as you dare & bug out.
There role is info gathering do not get them caught up in the fight unless it is a choice target. there aim is to make everybody elses job easier.
If you are doing recon at speed then you will be seen & may as well do recon in force with squads as they have more firepower & survivability.
The main thing is overwatch if you are detected & fired on several units should have eyes in the area, more eyes more chance of seeing who fired. Then pop smoke or let the other units return fire.
As Gila said try a search it has been covered to death, a bit like your scouts.

[Suhiir]

Imp pretty well covered it but to make it short and simple :

Reduce firing range on scout type units to 0 to 150m (0 to 3 hexes).

As quickly as possible get them into an overwatch position.

Stay stationary and non-firing as long as possible.

If spotted run to an alternate position out of line-of-sight.

The real "key" or "secret" is overwatch, Overwatch, OVERWATCH.

[c_of_red]

In the original SP, Vehicles of the class scout DID get a searching bonus.
They searched at the same percentage as Infantry instead of as vehicles.
I don't know if that was changed. Everybody says it has, but I haven't found anything in writing that says it has.
In the beginning, the base number for searching depended on the unit class.
The highest was Infantry, then vehicles, then aircraft. IIRC, the first modifier was moving or ready. I think the % was cut in half if moving, then another cut if the fast moving flag was set (If the unit has used more then 1/2 it's MP's that turn, a fast moving flag is set and that unit is penalized when searching or shooting. Then there are modifiers for Experience, if the unit being 'searched' is moving, it's experience, terrain, visibility, suppression etc.
Putting a leg scout in place is a two turn project at the minimum. 3 turns is better.
You move the vehicle transporting your unit to within 1 hex of where you want your scout and dismount the scout. Next turn move the vehicle away, LEAVE THE SCOUT ALONE. You want your scout to sit a turn so the fast moving flag will go off. Then you move your scout into the hide.
Course, you don't always have time to do this.
If you have to do a rolling scout, then get the smallest scout team you have ( 2 or 3 men max) and the vehicle with them most MP's that will carry them. Then you drive along, unloading the scouts ever hex or so, to see if the draw fire. If they don't, load them back into their vehicle and redo until you are out of MP's.
Example; you have a spiffy Hubmobile Mk II with 28MP's and a 2 man scout team inside. You move them down a road 4 hexes, costing 4MP's. Then you unload your scouts. You now have 22 MP's left. load the scouts back up (nobody shot at you, which doesn't mean nobody is there, just that they didn't shoot at you) and your down to 20 MP's. move 4 more hexes down the road and unload the scouts. you now have 14Mp's. That means you can do one more evolution and have 6 MP's left. Notice I'm moving 4 hexes per evolution? That is because there is a searching step a 4 hexes. Searching IS NOE ( Was Not?) linear. It used a gate system IIRC the ranges were 4 12, 20 and >40. Not sure if it still works that way, since it seldom matters. Except for the under 4 hexes. that was the step for ready Infantry searching any moving unit >size 1 at 99%.
Let's see, you still have 6 MP's. You can stretch out your next evolution to 6 hexes, since you can always unload, even if you don't have the MP's to do so, or you can do the standard 4, or sometime, if there is a good place to hide close, if you move less then 3, you can unload and still be able to move your vehicle away from the scout.
Now if I'm wrong on any of this, I'm sure it will be pointed out, then we will both know how it is being done in the latest version.

[Imp]

It never ceases to amaze me how in depth people get with the game mechanics. I consider myself quite observant & watch what happens. As it turns out the human brain is a marvelous thing & when people say how does this work you realise that a basic understanding has been tucked away. You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse

For possible thought on your leap frog scout.
They are expensive compared to a squad & unlike a squad a 2 man team is nearly useless if it loses a man. doing this is subjecting it to danger so yes might only get one unload but at least the squad is more likely to be useful after.
I only say this because he is fast moving so fire at is dangerous & the question was how do I keep my scouts alive. I would suggest this wont help though agree on some maps you have to do something like this or make progress very slowly.
The question you should ask is will the possible loss of the unit be worth the info gained, if so its a go.
As a last point try & remember your lead units smoke status & if your vehicle has dischargers consider driving to expected contact point & poping them before unloading if no other cover is available.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

It never ceases to amaze me how in depth people get with the game mechanics. I consider myself quite observant & watch what happens. As it turns out the human brain is a marvelous thing & when people say how does this work you realise that a basic understanding has been tucked away. You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse

Look at it this way.
If it were real life we'd be using what works in real life.
Since it's a game we use what works in game.

Most of us try to avoid "pure" gamey stuff (bug, rule, game mechanic exploits) but we have to do what works in the game not necessarily what works in real life.

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply scout (or for that matter any size 0 or 1 unit) was easily or often spotted at longer ranges, just that is does happen.

As for a test an easy one is to do an assault scenario and buy a bunch of AI controlled scout or infantry units. Set your units to fire at very short range (if at all) then just sit there and watch the AI units advance on your positions.

[hoplitis]

Originally Posted by Imp

...
You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse
...

If winSPMBT was a board-game and you were sticking to the "rudimentary mechanics" and not "taking advance of the system" you would actually be playing the game (BTW it is a game eh!) without full knowledge of its rules or the intent to use them. Of course you play the game as you wish (heck it's a hobby after all) but in my book game rules are the "soul" of games. Now, the computer handles the "arithmetic" of it all and eventually, if you keep playing the game, you may develop an instinct for it, which in essence is a form of "discovering" the underlying rules. Believe me, I understand your "spirit" on the issue. But sometimes I miss a clear-cut "traditional" rulebook ... it can save you time and time can be a scarce commodity...