Scouting/Recon

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply scout (or for that matter any size 0 or 1 unit) was easily or often spotted at longer ranges, just that is does happen.

As for a test an easy one is to do an assault scenario and buy a bunch of AI controlled scout or infantry units. Set your units to fire at very short range (if at all) then just sit there and watch the AI units advance on your positions.

[Imp]

One problem with your test Suhiir, most of those leg units will get spotted because they are moving as fast as possible across open terrain. Its the movement that gives them away basic animal programing war or otherwise if it moves it could be a threat so we automatically scan that area better to confirm what we thought moved did.
Repeated DRGs point sorry

[Suhiir]

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

That's a very good point. One thing that I've noticed is scenarios in WinSPMBT tend to be shorter than WinSPWW2. As such, I use scouts to cover flanks more than anything.

It could just be circumstances since my last seven WinSPMBT campaign battles have all been "meeting engagements". The last one was 16 turns long so averaging 2 hexes per turn on a 100x100 map, my scouts wouldn't even clear the area between deployment zones. My longest scenario has been 22 turns. All of them have been computer generated lengths and I don't change the lengths. I view the times as being set by my higher command and not by "right" to change. That's just my preference.

In WinSPWW2, "meeting engagements" seem to run 25 turns long and often over 30 turns. With that kind of time, I actually can use scouts for recon purposes.

It is possible to shorten distance scouts have to move by giving them a ride out some distance. Two turns riding will save a scout almost ten turns cautiously walking. You just have to be careful where the scout unloads. If it is in the open, the enemy might watch your scout move every step of the way.

[Imp]

Vyrago
The game uses a very simplified model with regards to vision aids, there main advantace apart from range is the ability to see through terrain units without cant. The problem of course is finding this terrain to get the benefit.
On vehicles depends on terrrain cover & whos watching but 1 or 2 hexes is about it to stand a chance of staying hidden. Not to mention you might not get noticed because the other player was moving but at the start of his turn they are not anymore & there you are.
As you say "a scout unit should be adept at movement to contact, spotting and ID of enemy and disengagement."
The ID part everybody in the game is good at, intrestingly in the links RERommie posted no mention of exceptional or any spotting skills are mentioned evasion etc is.
But those parts are down to you the player to carry out.

There use in the game is questionable anyway certainly for MBT in my view they represent part of your regular force who are out having a look not the specialists.
The specialists like any special forces should be several maps ahead observing & directing your main force onto the enemy. I have no military service but would say they locate & fall back or go to ground trying to gather as much info on the enemy force as possible & evading all combat.
The people you use in the game are looking for contact points final confirmation & are not realy scouts at all.
WW2 due to lack of vehicles or there speed, poor radios etc scouts are a lot closer to the main force but still way out front.

Try playing a game as just a scout formation move up locate, perhaps calling in air arty but not attacking directly that seems more to me what scouts do. If the scout formation comes with ATGMs or whatever you might take the odd shot & relocate but getting involved in a plolonged fire fight is an absolute no.

I often do not use scouts at all though I always used to have 2 per company, just find there role can be filled by most units & indeed has to be because your scouts in the wrong place.

On RERommies point stuff dies much faster on modern battlefields, both armour & infantry plus more transport higher speeds all makes for a shorter game overall.