Infantry AT Weapons

[Cross]

These weapons play a large part in the tactical level of SP. I decided to research them, and compared the data to the game. I looked at over 20 sources and found a couple of discrepancies that are possibly serious enough to warrant some changes.

Don and Andy, I hope you see this research as helpful grognard stuff; I'm not trying to push an agenda here.

Currently

Panzerfaust
Range........100m
Accuracy.....2
Penetration..20
Kill...............4

PIAT
Range........100
Accuracy.....2......Recommend: 4
Penetration..10
Kill...............2......Recommend: 3

Bazooka
Range........200....Recommend: 150
Accuracy.....6......Recommend: 4
Penetration..10.....Recommend: 8
Kill...............4......Recommend: 2

Panzerschreck
Range........300....Recommend: 150
Accuracy.....6......Recommend: 4
Penetration..20
Kill...............4

Suggestions:

1. Reduce Panzershreck and Bazooka range to 150m

About a year ago (ver.3) the PIAT has it’s range reduced from 300m to 100m. Everyone agrees that the PIAT had a range of over 300m, but most acknowledge that its effective range was 100m.

Every source I looked at says the effective range of the Panzershreck was 120-180m; most said 150m. Two sources gave a much longer maxium range, but were realistic about the effective range. Only one source claimed targets had been engaged at ranges over 300m. Some sources said the earlier model 43 had an effective range of 150, the later model 54 had a maximum engagement range of 180m.

Apparently, Panzershreck doctrine was to engage armour at a range of 120-180m.

A range of 400yds was sited most often for the bazooka, but these sites also said the effective range was 100 or 150 yds, with one exception which didn’t note an effective range. Another site gave a range of 300 with effective range of 100. One site actually said the effective range was less than 100yds.


2. Change Bazooka ‘kill’ to 2 and PIAT kill to 3 (based on explosive wgt.)

The Panzershreck had projectile that weighed over 7lbs with almost 1.5lb of explosive
The Panzerfaust projectile weighed about 6lbs with between 14oz to 1.8lb of explosive, depending which version of Panzerfaust.
The PIAT had a 3lb projectile with 1lb of explosive.
The Bazooka had a 3.5lb projectile with 0.5lb of explosive.

3. Change the accuracy of Panzershreck, PIAT and Bazooka to 4

In trying to determine the accuracy of these weapons I looked at three criteria:

• Velocity of the projectile (fps).
• Ease of use (how cumbersome, heavy, large, awkward etc.)
• Danger to operator and those nearby. (back-blast, flames, smoke signature)

Velocity
One of the most important aspects of these weapons accuracy, is the velocity of the projectile. This is even more true when shooting at a moving vehicle, which is more often than not in SP.

Panzerfaust avg: 175 fps (30:98fps; 60:150fps; 100:200fps; 150:280fps)
Bazooka: 270 fps
Panzershreck: 345fps
PIAT: 450fps

The PIAT had, by far, the best projectile velocity. If shooting at a target 100m away, the PIAT bomb would take just over a half second to get there, the Panzerfaust would take almost 2 seconds to reach the target. A huge difference if the target is moving.

Ease of Use
I have personally picked up and aimed all these weapons. The PIAT is a real pig, heavy and cumbersome; it could be hard to load the first time, but then it usually re-cocked itself for subsequent shots. The Panzershreck is large and unwieldy. The Bazooka is a pure joy to hold after the others.

Danger to operator and those nearby
The early Panzershreck required you wear a gas mask and fire retardant clothing; the gas mask must have made accuracy quite difficult.
The later Panzershreck was almost 6 feet long with a shield, where you peered through a small visor. Its back-blast endangered those directly behind for a long way, even those to the side for several meters. You had to be very careful where and when you fired it, and could not fire it from a building or enclosed space.
The smoke signature was horrible, instantly giving away your position, the troops called it the ‘stovepipe’ because of its long stove pipe size and the smoke.

The Bazooka had the same issues as the Panzershreck, but to a lesser extent. The Bazooka was 60mm with a 3.5lb round; the Panzershreck 88mm with a 7.25lb round.

The PIAT had no back-blast and virtually no smoke signature.

Summary
Velocity: Best: PIAT Med: Panzershreck Worst: Bazooka
Ease: Best: Bazooka Med: Panzershreck Worst: PIAT
Danger: Best: PIAT Med: Bazooka Worst: Panzershreck

This is why I think these three weapons should have about the same accuracy.

5. Decrease pen of Bazooka to 8

Sites give the Bazooka a penetration from 75mm to 125mm. However, I read a convincing story of an US officer shooting 22 rounds into the rear of a T34 (in Korea) with no effect. The T34 had between 6 and 8 cm of rear armour. Also the small explosive weight of Bazooka round. And finally, there are well documented cases of the PIAT knocking out Tigers and Panthers, but a lack of stories of the Bazooka knocking out large tanks. I could be wrong about this one, so if anyone has any stories of Bazookas KO large tanks, then I’m glad I’m wrong and leave it as is.


Sources:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Panzershrek

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m9-bazooka.htm

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/piat.aspx

http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...mallarms_id=70

http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...mallarms_id=48

http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...mallarms_id=69

http://everything2.com/e2node/PIAT

http://www.nasenoviny.com/PIATen.html

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FYP.HTM

http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/pschrek/

http://www.armyrecognition.com/forum...opic.php?t=459

http://www.gd-uk.org/panzerknacker.html

http://www.scribd.com/word/full/5266...=193jzy9e5foik

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust3.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/817...faust13.htm#m1

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bazooka

http://www.sproe.com/b/bazooka.html

http://www.strictly-gi.com/bazooka.html

http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/bazoo/

http://www.saw.usace.army.mil/campbutner/AppendixE.pdf

et al...

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[chuckfourth]

Hi Cross
Excellent post.
I have a little to add,
Here are ian hoggs penetration rating for these weapons I would like to see these implemented.

"PIAT= 75mm"
"2.36" Bazooka = 80mm"
"Panzerfaust 30/60 =200mm (at 30 degrees)"
"88mm Panzerschreck = 100mm"
from
Ian V. Hogg in 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II'
These are I believe the weapons effective penetrations. For the often quoted "maximum" penetrations the resulting hole and "blast" delivered through it were minor. Many other site agree with this set of penetration values.

As regards the PIAT accuracy two good arguments can be made for it to retain a lesser accuracy than the Bazooka, Panzershreck and even Panzerfaust.
from your references about PIAT,
http://everything2.com/e2node/PIAT
"An extremely heavy trigger pull impaired accuracy"
ie tensing up your hand/arm to pull the trigger is the very opposite of what you need to do to get off a good shot, that is, relax.
and
http://www.nasenoviny.com/PIATen.html
"and the weapon (PIAT) tended to kick very violently when fired"
As regards the latter of course Bazooka, Panzershreck and Panzerfaust all have no recoil making them relatively more accurate.

Penetration values Of interest from your reference
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FYP.HTM
"75 mm of armour at 100 meters" (PIAT)
"The Panzershreck had a maximum effective range of 150 metres, penetrating 100 mm thick armour"

Best Regards Chuck.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Hi Cross
Excellent post.
I have a little to add,
Here are ian hoggs penetration rating for these weapons I would like to see these implemented.

"PIAT= 75mm"
"2.36" Bazooka = 80mm"
"Panzerfaust 30/60 =200mm (at 30 degrees)"
"88mm Panzerschreck = 100mm"
from
Ian V. Hogg in 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II'
These are I believe the weapons effective penetrations. For the often quoted "maximum" penetrations the resulting hole and "blast" delivered through it were minor. Many other site agree with this set of penetration values.

Hi Chuck,

I've heard of Ian Hogg, but just about every source I looked at said the PIAT could pentrate 4 inches (100mm) of armour. The PIAT bomb pentration was tested by the MoD - as very important to them - before going into production, and even the earliest bombs could penetrate 100mm. Some sites claim 120-125mm. SPWaW (for it's worth) have the PIAT with PEN of 13, but I don't know what their sources were.

Opinons on the Bazooka were more varied from 75-125mm. SPWaW has it able to pen 9,

I found a record of a Bazooka tested against a Panther tank. 16 rounds were fired and the results recorded.

The test shows that a Bazooka can penetrate the side and rear armour. However, the side and rear armour were only about 5cm.

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html

The Panzershreck PEN was listed from 160-230mm by all sources, except I think one.

The Panzerfaust was listed from 140-200mm, but the 140mm was for the early 'Klien?' model.

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

As regards the PIAT accuracy two good arguments can be made for it to retain a lesser accuracy than the Bazooka, Panzershreck and even Panzerfaust.
from your references about PIAT,
http://everything2.com/e2node/PIAT
"An extremely heavy trigger pull impaired accuracy"
ie tensing up your hand/arm to pull the trigger is the very opposite of what you need to do to get off a good shot, that is, relax.
and
http://www.nasenoviny.com/PIATen.html
"and the weapon (PIAT) tended to kick very violently when fired"
As regards the latter of course Bazooka, Panzershreck and Panzerfaust all have no recoil making them relatively more accurate.

As for 'accuracy requiring relaxing'; firing the Bazooka or Panzershreck was an EXTREMELY tense experience. Here's a quote:

Having actually fired a bazooka I can tell you two things about them: 1. maybe they're supposed to be recoilless but they still kick like mules, and 2. the backblast will vaporize a wooden ammo crate 50 feet behind the weapon. So, yes, you can fire a bazooka inside a building but you won't do it twice.

I also read how GIs hated to be assigned to the Bazooka, considering it a 'death sentence', largely because it instantly gave your position away - at close range - to the enemy; not very relaxing.

The panzershreck was possibly twice as bad.

To be fair the PIAT also 'kicked like a mule'. One man won a VC after shooting a PIAT from the hip and knocking out a Tiger. Commentators said, 'he deserved the VC for the bravery of shooting the PIAT from the hip'.

One site said a PIAT could hit a 1m square white board at 100yds, 9 out of 10 times. Unfortunately, I can’t find the site. However I did find a site that says the PIAT was ‘said to have accuracy on a 2'5" x 2'5" target up to 100 yards’.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/piat.aspx

I will try to find the other site.

Another site claims the PIAT was more ‘effective’ than the Bazooka and the Panzershreck.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/small...mallarms_id=48

I read a claim that the 1st Norfolks said they could put a PIAT bomb in a bunker slit (Burma) at 50yds.

Keep in mind the PIAT was a house buster at up to 350m, and some of the German tanks were as big as European 1940s houses. The 100m effective range is for a moving tank.

Rockets are inherently inaccurate. One site claims an early test of the Panzershreck, fired 12 times at a T34 100m away, resulted in 9 misses!

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust3.htm

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Penetration values Of interest from your reference
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/browse/FYP.HTM
"75 mm of armour at 100 meters" (PIAT)
"The Panzershreck had a maximum effective range of 150 metres, penetrating 100 mm thick armour"

Best Regards Chuck.

I disagree with PIAT and the Panzershreck pen referenced by the site, for reasons stated earlier. When a source disagrees with all other sources, it's probably not accurate. But agree the Panzershreck probably had an effective range (hit moving tank) of about 150m, not the 300m it currently has in SP.

Thanks for your input, I've found researching these weapons fascinating.

cheers,
Simon

[Cross]

As I thought about it, I seems there should be a consistent approach to infantry AT weapons.

Right now, SP has the Bazooka max range set to it’s mid range, the PIAT set to it’s short ‘hard to miss’ range, and the Panzershreck set to it’s long range.

Then for some reason, the Bazooka and Panzershreck are given the best accuracy! If we are going to limit the PIATs range to 100m (the PIAT had a 370m mark on it’s sight/elevation/guide) then give it excellent accuracy.

But perhaps a consistent solution would be to set all the weapons to about their mid range:

Bazooka 200
Panzershreck 200
PIAT 150

And give them all horrible accuracy. Then if you want to waste ammo at ‘longer’ ranges (most units only have 4 to 6 rounds), and give your position away, go ahead.

This would encourage players to use these units as in real life: wait until your target is <100m and you can’t miss.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by Cross

As I thought about it, I seems there should be a consistent approach to infantry AT weapons.

Right now, SP has the Bazooka max range set to it’s mid range, the PIAT set to it’s short ‘hard to miss’ range, and the Panzershreck set to it’s long range.

Then for some reason, the Bazooka and Panzershreck are given the best accuracy! If we are going to limit the PIATs range to 100m (the PIAT had a 370m mark on it’s sight/elevation/guide) then give it excellent accuracy.

But perhaps a consistent solution would be to set all the weapons to about their mid range:

Bazooka 200
Panzershreck 200
PIAT 150

And give them all horrible accuracy. Then if you want to waste ammo at ‘longer’ ranges (most units only have 4 to 6 rounds), and give your position away, go ahead.

This would encourage players to use these units as in real life: wait until your target is <100m and you can’t miss.

Are you sure that firing a PIAT is a sure hit at 1 HEX?i remember taking 4 shots at a panther moving at 7mph before a hit, at 1 hex away D:, but this was probably caused by the green kids firing it...

[Cross]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

Are you sure that firing a PIAT is a sure hit at 1 HEX?i remember taking 4 shots at a panther moving at 7mph before a hit, at 1 hex away D:, but this was probably caused by the green kids firing it...

Hi iCamp,

No, I didn't mean to imply that you can't miss at 50m in the current game.

I did a quick test, 10 Tigers, 10 AT teams. A stationary unsupressed PIAT AT team, has about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a Tiger moving at 11mph at 100yd range.

Over 50 to 60% for the second shot.
Just over 90% for the third shot.

I think the hit probability of the first shot is too low, and last is too high; with the second shot about right. But it's silly to split hairs.

I think the PIAT accuracy is probably about right; it'd be nice to have a better first shot percentage. But think the Panzershreck and Bazooka should not have a higher accuracy.

[Marek_Tucan]

AFAIK even with more modern weapons like M72LAW, a single shot was considered waste of ammo against mobile targets and they were supposed to be launched in volleys.

[DRG]

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is part of a phrase attributed to Benjamin Disraeli and popularised in the United States by Mark Twain"

[Cross]

Originally Posted by DRG

I love this quote. Wasn't the PMs original quote something like: 'There's three types of lies, lies, damned lies, and statistics, but the worst of these is statistics.'

[PanzerBob]

Good day all,

Just to add my 2 shekels worth. Stats from testing and use in battle, especially for hand-held weapons would most definitely differ. From every thing I've seen all these weapons took a good deal of nerve and no small measure of luck to use. They were issued to give Joe or Hans footslogger some anti-armour capability, more to point to give them the belief that they had some chance against armour. To be sure the weapons we are discussing were also developed with giving these guys some standoff range, compared to earlier AT weapons.

With all this said I concur that the solution would most likely be to go with reducing the ranges of these weapons and bumping the PIAT back to 150. IMHO it would inject a little more realism, another solution would be to keep the ranges at the tested ranges but lower the accuracy. The later method would still make it a weapon that to be effective will still require getting in close and still retain the ability for people to break cover and try the training manual's advertised long range shot. And then find out the holy hull it would bring down on their heads!! LOL

While it's nice to be able to reach out touch someone with these weapons I wouldn't pock at toning them down. This sure is not some kiddy arcade version of WWII!

Bob out