Exclusive Techs - Theory and Discussion

[Suicide Junkie]

Exclusive techs, as seen in Moo games and etc.

If you've researched tech A, it is impossible to research tech B, but if you haven't researched tech A, you can research tech B no problem. (And vice versa)

Are there some good examples of techs that should be exclusive?
Surely there must be something if there are games that include it...

I never did understand how that sort of thing would make any sort of sense.

Eg:
If the russians develop tech A, they can't research tech B, even though the Americans decided to ignore tech A and sucessfully developed tech B instead.
If the americans did it, why can't the russians do it too if they really want to?

Originally posted by Me Loonn:
Well, one could think it as simple as railway track width, that differs in some countiers, or as bolts and screws that are either inch or mm based.
After making desision to use one, changing to other would require massive scrappin of old and replasing all those former bolts and screws that have now become "absolite".

... [trek example] ...

I know this sounds rather clumsy exsample, but in practical use of different techs, all kinds of problems emerge (PC, anyone... ?)

That's a fair start, but the imperial to metric conVersion will only take a generation or three if you try.
Probably the closest Space Empires analog to the railway idea would be Standard extractors to monoliths... you have to scrap the old and build the new from scratch... at worst, an entire planet at a time.
You'd have to lay down new track across your country/province/state, then get new trains, tear up the old tracks afterwards, and redesign the stations perhaps, but if the economic incentive was there, or if I became dictator for life of the country, it could happen .

I certainly agree that some changes should be difficult to make, but it seems to me that if it was physically possible to do before you learn something, it should certainly be possible after you've learned something.





Aside: Don't bother with the rest if you're just into the philosphical side.

However... I also believe that it would be a useful ability to have in the game.
For example, to close off truly useless tech areas. If you've just made a major breakthrough, and developed an engine that is smaller/faster/cheaper and uses less supplies than the previous drive would ever achieve, then it would make sense to have the old drive techs become Obsolete and unavailable.

Or, for two tech areas that both provide the same results...
for example, a 100,000 point area that provides access to a torpedo weapons tech area, and a 10,000 point area that also provides the same torpedo weapons tech area, but has other prerequisites, say a ruins tech or military science.
When you've researched one, the other will be useless, as they're both doors to the same tech.
So both techs should obsolete the other.

PS:
While I like StarTrek as much as the next guy, its hardly ever a good example for stuff like this.
They should have just ordered a pre-fab outpost from replicated parts from some Federation construction contractor in the area, and saved themselves a whole lot of trouble.
When things are that bad, you scrap and rebuild from scratch to save vast amounts of time and effort, and probably credits in the long run.

[Jack Simth]

Just a thought....

Learning A by research can make it effectively (but not truely) impossible to learn B by research - it is a matter of A saying certain things required for B are impossible when they may not be; this would cause anyone wanting to research B to be laughed out of the Scientific Community, and not recieve any of the necessary funding for finding B. The only way B gets opened back up is if it is concretely demonstrated to the SC that the portion of A which said B was impossible is wrong (e.g. someone bLasting them in their faces with technology B, or getting a sample of B from a captured ship, or finding a sample of B in some ruins, or ...).

Another way this could happen would be a matter of point - if you have method A of making holograms which, at present, is much more effective in every way than method C, then nobody is going research method C once A is discovered. However, if some of the principals used in C later lead to B, but A does not have these principals, then A being discovered may prevent B from being subsequently discovered. Again, it becomes effectively (but not truely - theoretically the powers-that-be could order research in C, eventually leading to B - but how likely is that?) impossible to learn B once A is discovered, barring picking the principals up from somewhere else.

[Slick]

I think the idea has some merit. Rather than a strict "either, or" maybe it should increase the cost of "switching over". Keep in mind that the timescale of a game is one extended war, so empires are in war production mode and leadership needs to provide clear direction without constantly shifting priorities around. If research priorities are shifted around, there should be a penalty.

Example: Shields or armor.
If you choose armor, then the cost of shield research increases due to having to switch over your economy, technology, ships and equipment. You still can research both, but at a much higher cost than either one individually. This would allow you to research one branch much farther in the same time if it were done exclusively.

This kind of research model would diminish the ability to quickly respond to what the enemy is doing and provide a counter. As such, it would need to be done carefully, because this aspect of SE4 is one of the things that makes it a great game and a poor implementaton might ruin the game.

Slick.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

Are there some good examples of techs that should be exclusive?
Surely there must be something if there are games that include it...

I think it's just a game-play mechanic with no basis in reality.

[Erax]

Most of the switch-over costs would be in facilities and materials, wich would become apparent if the production chain was more elaborate (i.e., if you need smelters and factories to produce armor, and then you have to scrap them to start building 'shield generator factory' facilities).

[Suicide Junkie]

If you choose armor, then the cost of shield research increases due to having to switch over your economy, technology, ships and equipment. You still can research both, but at a much higher cost than either one individually. This would allow you to research one branch much farther in the same time if it were done exclusively.

I strongly believe that replacing such things should not cost you more research. You still have to pay to retrofit your ships to use shields, pull them off the front lines, or plain rebuild from scratch.

You don't need researchers with doctorates to do grunt work in the shipyards.

-edit-
Yeah, like Erax said.



Jack:
Interesting.

As to your second part, that seems to me an example of tech C having a prerequisite D, that is also needed by B.

A= PPB
B= ECM
C= Torpedos
D= Military Science

Now, for that first part...
It sounds like this could be trying to emulate a lack of knowlege of the tech tree...

However, after the first few times playing, players will know to take tech C instead of tech A in order to get tech B
And in addition, there is no way to clear the exclusion when the race's researchers experience the paradigm shift (such as in the examples you gave)
Plenty of implementation problems, for sure.

Now, it seems to me with the system of prerequisites as seen in SE4, the tech dosen't become available for research at all until you have knowledge of everything that is required...
Thus, you can't really be sidelined by some other tech.

On the other hand, if the glass is half full, you could see it as the interesting possibility of jumping techs.
Something like a tech area that opens up cloaking devices after researching stealth armor.
That bridge tech could become unavailable after researching physics 1, but the cloaking devices are still accessible through the regular path to Physics level 3.

[ July 02, 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]