Did you noticed.......

[apoger]

>can been done with scripting, remind me the specifics? it was 35 wardens against 100 flags, and what magic levels should their gods get?


It was 10 wardens backed by a god with nature-9
versus
35 flags backed by a god with fire-4 blood-6 (or potentially fire-9)

I'll get around to it eventually, but if you want to testbed it... fell free.

[ywl]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it.

Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

A lot of the disagreements so far are different focuses of the game. Some people like more basic infantries; some like mages; some like powerful gods; some hate SC while others regard them as a part of the game. Give the developers a break, there is no way to please everybody. And they have their vision to the game too. The only choice is option to disable some of the spells, and limit research below a certain level.

My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map. Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance. If you think that 200% taxation and build the most units is the right kind of game, you're allowed to do so. But it's a matter of personal taste.

2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed? To me, things have improved. Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable. Moloch cannot give you free devils. Both Moloch and Wyrm now look a bit overpriced but I guess somebody is going to prove me wrong soon. The dragons now might be the all purpose bargain pretenders but they can be killed. The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, and to a lesser extent the Statues and Monolith. They're disruptive because they're spoiler which destroy the prospect of one opponent without adding too much to yourselves. They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels. Blood slaves are harder to get because of the requirement of blood mages to collect slaves. Ice Devils need 55 instead of 30, level 5 instead of 4. Horde from Hell needs 30 instead of 20. Father Illearth is now a level 7 spell. Even the wimpy Dark Vines are moved from level 3 to 5. And no more Pazuzu util level 9. Is it not far enough? I don't think anybody know until we've played the full-game for a few months. Especially when now, both nature (better Treelords, Tarrasque), death (various Tartarian Spirits) and astral (Juggernut) get their super-conjurations now.

4) Death Magic. I guess your complaint is because "Raise Skeleton" and "Raise Deads" don't need gems while the Summon Lesser Elemental do? Nobody has complained these two spells over-powered in Dom 1. Death was weak in Dom 1 - I think Dom 2 has improved on that. Is it too far? We'll have to see how people use it in a full game.

5) Evocation. I don't see the problem yet. Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1. Mages teleporting into a province and demolishing a whole army has always been there in Dom 1. Some people love it though you're free to find such tactic unfun. What are your suggestions for game play? Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun. You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

[apoger]

>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.


>Give the developers a break

I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?


>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

You haven't looked closely then.


>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

See a difference yet?


>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?


The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

That's what has changed.


>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

A bit, yes.


>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.


>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx,
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.


>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.


No they are not more expensive!!!!

Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.


>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

In what way?
I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

If anything it's much more deadly.


>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.


>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

[johan osterman]

The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

HOORJAY!

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by apoger:
Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.

Yes, it's way too potent - insanely powerful. But weaker than Dominions 1, since mages now just kinda shoot up in the air like a sprinkler

So - nether darts is overpowered, but you can't claim that as a reason Dominions 2 is worse.

ywl:
My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map.

Again... raising richness increases resource production, greatly altering the game balance. This would be a viable suggestion if gold richness and resource richness could be set independantly, and with finer granularity than low-med-high.

-Cherry

[apoger]

>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that...

[ November 03, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: apoger ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by apoger:
>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that...

Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:49: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[ywl]

>>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

>So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.

Your comment is trollish, or as the other had said, jumping the gun before seeing the whole game. I don't mean that you're a troll (a faithless backstabber who keep winning the game, maybe . Trollish because of there were a lot of complaints without much constructive criticism. You also expected the game to follow a certain way and therefore complained a lot of aspects wouldn't be as fun. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I guess some of us are quite thrilled to see the high power magic-fest.

But let's not call each other's name.

>>Give the developers a break

>I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?

A fair complaint .

>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

> You haven't looked closely then.

As close as my ability limit me to .

>>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

>Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

I saw two numbers on the board. One said 7%, the other said 10%.

>In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

>In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

>That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

>See a difference yet?


I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

If I'm right, it's 21% + 18% (39%?) - (growth and productivity add 3% each level?) versus 30 + 30% (60%). Assuming your base income is 3000 gold by turn 30, it would be 4800 vs 4170. Big enough but I don't see it very significant - could be my play style.

>>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?

>The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

>That's what has changed.

For a MP game, you can raise the richness of the world. Increase the site frequency. Or give everybody a few starting provinces. You need to tweak the game settings to your flavor and find like-minded people but I don't see that a fundamental fault of the game.

But if you like the patrolling routine, then we'll need to persuade the developers to allow adjustment of population loss. Harder but not imposssible.

>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

>A bit, yes.

>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

>That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.

Show me .

I was limiting to the amount of gems you could get from your capital site. So, no boot to most except for Ulm and Vanheim. Great Mother is usable but her fatique will be quite high after a few turns. PoD is undead and can abuse his melee advantages easily. It's before turn 10. So I'm limiting to only one magic path, below level 4.

The cost of the pretender I used was less than 100 points. If you invested enough in your pretender, of course he will be powerful. But that's a conscious and risky choice of stratgy, not an abuse. People can of course use a Titan with water and air, but they're doing it at their own risk. We all know how risky it is to put all the eggs into one basket.

Yes, I understand that you don't like too much emphasis being put on the pretenders, any suggestions that can allow the game to accomodate both sides of the spectrum? An option to double the cost of all points related to pretender power?

>>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx,
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

>No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.

I don't see that.

Sphinx is expensive and limited (one misc item only now). You can't even use it to break a seige!!

You can totally decapitate a player in the early game. A good and intimidating move but you're asking for diplomatic trouble that way. Moreover, unless you put more magic on it, a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral and (incredible it may sound) it doesn't really qualify as a super-combatant to me. If he has more magic, any death will be the loss of a lot of points, which is especially probable as a Sphinx can't retreat.

But of course, all of these are related to my preferrence of game strategy. Your mileage could be very different.

>>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.

>No they are not more expensive!!!!

>Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I don't see that.

Gem economy in general is not more expensive. It's less affordable to hire mages. But it will be the same as Blood hunters.

Gold economy is worse (though it's around 20 to 30% worse in my calculation). That's everybody agrees on. It's just some people hate it, some love it, some find it tweakable and tolerable.

>I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.

Not in a sarchastic way - I can't wait .

>>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

>In what way?
>I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

>If anything it's much more deadly.

It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

BTW, does anybody know whether higher level mages get higher resistance while casting the ward spells?

>>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.

>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

"Flame Eruption" is more powerful and at a lower level than "Nether Dart". Some nations have very dispensible mages to use them. They have short range - their only limitation.

"Astra Fire" is not as potent but cheap and of a lower level.

And the "Wrathful sky" you've mentioned.

There are other killer spells. I don't see them anywhere worse them the "Darts". Even "Rain of Stone" is quite useful as long as you have somebody with high enough hp to use it.

"Nether Darters" are also very vulnerable to "Mind Duel". You can also counter it by increasing the MR of your troops. It's powerful but it's a level 7 spell.

If you don't like high-power army-devastating spells in general, that is another discussion. That'll involved putting in some options to tone down magic in the game. Not a bad idea at all. How do you want to implement it?

[Pocus]

thats my part of the comments, which go either in the direction of Alex arguments, or in the opposite:

- combat pretenders are more powerful in doms II that they were in doms I, because they didnt change, but as gold income is reduced by a factor of 2 (a bit more actually, see below), they gain advantage relatively. A doms II nations with a combat pretender will develop way faster than a nation without (Alex got 36 provinces by turn 20 with a dragon, I got 18, just the half, with a rainbow mage, same settings. Ok it can just mean I'm really bad in this game ).

- The highest gold income in doms II is 250 gp in your capital. You cant really count on doubling that by patrolling, as several mechanisms concur into making the idea a really bad one (more unrest, and big decrease in pop). Compared to doms I, where you could patrol easily your capital, and reach nearly 600 gp a turn.

- non blood nations gained some big summons, but as only blood nations can really hope to get and hold demons princes, the situation has not so clearly changed in favor of one of the two clans. Blood harvest is more difficult, but from my experience, when you succeed, you get more slaves, so the situation is not that clear.

- nether darts are not * that * overpowered. To be correct, nether darts are not overpowered when you have an anti magic ward, as the damage need a MR check. Lamias with AM ward dont need to fear the darts, eg.
Also the larger battlefield is rather detrimental to accuracy (fireball and flare have lost much of their interest by the way).