Two Birds with One Stone Suggestion

[Scott Hebert]

Not to bring up Clams again, but..

One of the key points in the whole Clam debate is the relative lack of any Water-based Rituals of effectiveness, especially compared to Astral.

Well, here's an idea for a Water ritual that would make it much more useful:

5 Water Gems
Water-2 or -3
Enchantment-5 (or so; this can be tweaked)
Ritual

Target a province. One random non-artifact removable item in that province is stolen and placed on the casting mage. If the targeted province also has a lab, then items in the nation's lab inventory is also included in the pool to be stolen.

I believe the effect of this would be to start a magical 'tug-of-war' for control of Clams. Note that, late game, this isn't very effective because of the Dome spells. However, since it takes quite a while for Clamming to get out of hand, it's quite possible to stop it from ever getting off the ground, provided you know or can guess where the Clams are located.

The whole 'lab inventory' thing is included as a countermeasure, actually. Yes, you COULD steal a Clam of Pearls from that location, OR you might get the Bane Venom Charm that he has sitting in his labs for just this sort of occasion. If it isn't already, you might want to make sure that the Bane Venom Charm is non-removable. Though, IIRC its use in the Arena, it isn't removable.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Scott

[LintMan]

Seems way overpowered. I'd use that spell to strip all the items off any enemy SC's, and to strip large armies of their Wine bags, leaving them starving. Even if the cost was made more in line with its power, stealing clams would be pretty low, priority-wise, because you would't be able to cast it enough to make a difference..

Also, the clam hoarder is likely far better equipped to spam this spell than his opponents would be, since he'd already have a good water gem income, and a bunch of water mages.

I'm not really an opponent of clams (within reason), but if you want a water-based ritual spell to combat clams, how about:
Salmonella- W7, 80 water gems- Global effect: Every clam holder has a 30% chance per clam per turn of getting diseased.

[Cohen]

You'll go to lose massed scouts ... point.
With fever fetish, you give it to scouts.
When scout has 1 hitpoint, remove it and give to a new scout.
2 x scout ...

This isn't very damage dealing ...

[Gandalf Parker]

Creative. but it doesnt feel very watery. more like an astral spell.

[ May 28, 2004, 00:05: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[PvK]

I still like my simple, sense-making, clam fix:

All the clams in the game only generate a maximum number of astral pearls equal to the number of sea provinces on the map. If the world holds more clams than seas, then only certain random clams chosen each month, will get pearls, up to that number.

Self-balancing, and scales with the map.

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by PvK:
All the clams in the game only generate a maximum number of astral pearls equal to the number of sea provinces on the map. If the world holds more clams than seas, then only certain random clams chosen each month, will get pearls, up to that number.

Nice. Except that in the pros and cons list, one of the things listed as an pro was that it was one of the few things Atlantis had going for it.

It made me think though. What if only a water-mage could use it? Dont we have oher items like that? (the only thing that come to mind at the moment is the stupid crown that only Ermor can use but I keep getting from indies)

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by LintMan:
Seems way overpowered.

It was written to be strong, yes. It needs to be less than a Clam if it is to control them, though.

I'd use that spell to strip all the items off any enemy SC's,

Added bonus: It relieves SCs of their equipment, which really puts the hurt on SCs. I thought limiting SCs was also something on a wish list?

and to strip large armies of their Wine bags, leaving them starving.

While more of an issue, this would make people break their armies down into smaller bites, something that I feel should be done anyway.

Even if the cost was made more in line with its power, stealing clams would be pretty low, priority-wise, because you would't be able to cast it enough to make a difference..

Really? This spell costs half as much as a Clam, so I _should_ be able to cast this twice as much, if I have the mages to do it.

Also, the clam hoarder is likely far better equipped to spam this spell than his opponents would be, since he'd already have a good water gem income, and a bunch of water mages.

Well, if he's stealing stuff, he isn't making Clams, now is he? That was rather the point of the exercise, wasn't it...?

Another option would be a Fire item-destroying Ritual (which would be quite useful).

Scott

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Creative. but it doesnt feel very watery. more like an astral spell.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Unfortunately, do we really WANT Astral to get more powerful? If you made this Astral, at any level, the game would devolve TOWARDS Clams even faster, IMO.

I originally thought of putting it in Air (Thieving Magpie, anyone?), but Water needs the boost much more than Air.

Scott

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
It made me think though. What if only a water-mage could use it? Dont we have oher items like that? (the only thing that come to mind at the moment is the stupid crown that only Ermor can use but I keep getting from indies)

Errr... that just restricts who can use the Clam-hoarding strategy, right? Off the top of my head, this would restrict Clam-hoarding to:

Pythium
Atlantis
Caelum
Rlyeh (sort of)
Arco
Tien Chi

Rlyeh _really_ gets hit by this. They can't afford to use their 280g non-sacred mage to hold Clams.

OTOH, Pythium is the big winner. A 150g Sacred Theurge (which can be recruited in all castles) easily holds the Clams. They also have natural income in both Water _and_ Astral. Their problem is reliably having a Forger for them. If I wanted to Clam-hoard, I'd probably take a minimal Pretender, have her Forge Clams until I get to Construction 6, then bust out with the Bracelets.

Arco has a somewhat more random time of it. They're not helped nearly as much due to no innate water gem income, and no guarantee of being able to Forge them. Their Mystics also cost about the same in upkeep as a Arch theurg.

Tien Chi is also another clear winner here. The Celestial Masters can Forge them, and S&A also gets the Master of the Five Elements to hold them.

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, per se. It might limit it, but it would probably just shift it around.

If you wanted to add a drawback to the Pearls, as someone else suggested Horror Marking is probably the easiest way to do it.

Of course, if you want to deal with Clams _after_ they're established, you might go with something like:

Artificer's Bane (Evocation 6 or so)
Ritual
FFFFF
40 Fire gems

Target a Province. Each and every item in that province has a 10% chance of being destroyed. All items on the casting mage are automatically destroyed.

(That Last part is to 'up the cost' of the spell, since few people other than Pretenders will naturally have Fire-5.)

Hrm. I'm in a pensive mood...

Scott

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
It was written to be strong, yes. It needs to be less than a Clam if it is to control them, though.

Since it is likely to be more powerful than wind ride, it would have to have a similar cost.

I personally don't think there should be any way to get items from a commander without killing that commander and having the chance that it gets picked up.