Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors

[Chris Byler]

It seemed like such a neat idea, what went so wrong with Return of the Raptors?

Well, several things. Weak, expensive priests; no sacred troops at all (losing the pretty good sacred troop that base Caelum had); non-cold-resistant troops in a nation that still economically wants cold-3; weaker, more expensive mages for a nation that lives and dies by its magic.

It's obvious that Return of the Raptors is in need of serious help.

I suggest these changes:

• Reduce the cost of the Seraph to 110 (compared to base Caelum's 100 and not capitol only), and increase the cost of the Harab Seraph to 140, but add priest-2 and sacred to the Harab in exchange for the cost increase. This makes him a good researcher and makes RotR not pay quite such a heavy premium for preaching. You still won't see a lot of Seraphs at 110 because they are capitol only in RotR - and with upkeep, inferior to the now-sacred Harab Seraph for research.
• Raise the Harab Elder's priest skill to 3 so it remains stronger than the Harab Seraph (and gives them Fanaticism potential - important for a nation that often attacks behind enemy lines where retreat is death). Also, change his magic from the current 3 Air, 1 Earth, 2 Death to 2 Air, 1 Water, 1 Earth, 2 Death, 1 Random (giving him 7 magic picks total, tied with the Spring&Autumn Celestial Masters - which are about the same cost and also fly). He already costs 270, which seems about right for the new HE considering Caelum's mages are traditionally cheap for their abilities to compensate for the nation's other weaknesses. The Harab Elders should be a force to be reckoned with - remember, you're giving up the High Seraph, one of the best mages in the game (and a mere 175 gold), to get them. The "new" HE could have level 3 in Air or Death and level 2 in Water or Earth, giving a player with several Harab Elders a variety of forging, ritual, and site searching options, as well as being a presence on the battlefield. But unlike the big mages of many other nations (including base Caelum), a favorable random can't give them 4 in anything. Basically they'd be the Norn of RotR (as the Harab Seraph is its Seithkona).
• The Raven Guard are pathetic. 17 gold 18 resources (and let's not forget the double supply) for an "elite" troop with 11 attack, 10 defense, 11 protection? Their sword and dagger are at least as deadly to them as to their enemies - weak armor and no shield is a recipe for disaster unless you have *really* good defense, and short weapons with a mediocre morale of 12 doesn't help either. I doubt if they could go 1-for-1 with falchioneers, satyr hoplites or einherjar, let alone *real* elites like emerald guards, guardians, heart companions, wardens, or Daoine Sidhe. (And I'm not even mentioning the cavalry.) It doesn't seem reasonable for them to carry heavy armor since they fly, but why not give them some real skill? Most units of that cost have at least 11-12 base attack and defense - especially if their equipment is so weak. Better yet, why not make them sacred for 30 gold? They'll at least have good morale when blessed, and the player can choose other ways to make them good (note that with the above suggestions, RotR's priests will be slightly less horrible). A reasonably priced (though not that formidable) sacred flyer recruitable anywhere would be an interesting and unusual edge for the theme to have. Also, if the Harab Seraph is now a priest, making the Raven Guard sacred would make all the black-winged Raptors sacred, which helps unify the theme.
• Maximum cold-2 for the theme (analogous to Blood of Humans). This is a serious limitation (it costs them points to hurt them economically, see the BoH threads for further analysis of this point), but I'm giving them some nice other toys. Also, less cold actually *helps* the raptors, which is thematic. And it makes the theme feel and play more differently from standard Caelum.

As it stands now, RotR is clearly magically weaker than base Caelum - no randoms, two paths they can't get more than 1 in without empowerment including 40% of their base gem income, and even those dumbed-down mages are *more* expensive than base Caelum's - and their priests are probably the worst of any theme in the game (270 gold for a Holy-2 priest - ok, he's also a pretty good mage, but in terms of priest power for your money, awful).

It seems that they should compensate with military might to rival Ulm's - but instead they have the same subpar military as base Caelum, possibly even worse (giving up the temple guard for the unimpressive Raven Guard and the crappy Raptor). And their climate still works against indies and mercs.

I think the above suggestions would make the theme fit together better (all the black wings are sacred, less cold so the non-cold-resistant troops can tolerate it, HEs can use any of the theme's magic paths) and, more importantly, bring it closer to a competitive level (flying sacred troops are often worthy of consideration, priests recruitable everywhere help them not lose dominion battles as badly, and a 7-pick mage is often an asset even at high costs).

I've put together a mod with all the above except the cold restriction (which can't currently be modded), but I don't have a place to host it. If there is any interest I will submit it to Illwinter or see if I can get it hosted somewhere.

[quantum_mechani]

I agree with many suggestions, particularly about raven guard, but there are really some themes in worse need. There is basicly no reason to take Barbarian Kings at the moment, and serious disadvantages. Serpent Cult is a pale shadow of basic Pythium. Raptor theme is not that bad, just a theme of one of the most high-powered nations.

[ July 29, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: quantum_mechani ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
[*]The Raven Guard are pathetic.

At least they're affordable. Beats the Iceclads and Temple Guards, whose resource costs make them nigh-unaffordable.

[*]Maximum cold-2 for the theme (analogous to Blood of Humans). This is a serious limitation (it costs them points to hurt them economically, see the BoH threads for further analysis of this point), but I'm giving them some nice other toys. Also, less cold actually *helps* the raptors, which is thematic. And it makes the theme feel and play more differently from standard Caelum.

Caelum still prefers Cold-3 anyway, just as BoH prefers Heat-3 nonetheless: You just suffer the penalty of being one scale off in addition to losing out in the points. You want to harm the theme economically even MORE, while it already sucks now? You're out of your mind.

and their priests are probably the worst of any theme in the game (270 gold for a Holy-2 priest - ok, he's also a pretty good mage, but in terms of priest power for your money, awful).

Yeah, Raptor Caelum is by far the most religiously awful nation in the game: You have NO priest recruitable outside your capitol whatsoever, and your ONLY priest is a measly holy-2. Even Ulm can outpreach you, and that's just sad.

It seems that they should compensate with military might to rival Ulm's - but instead they have the same subpar military as base Caelum, possibly even worse (giving up the temple guard for the unimpressive Raven Guard and the crappy Raptor). And their climate still works against indies and mercs.

Well, they still retain both the excellent Archers, and Mammoth/Wingless combo. That can stomp an Ulmish army easily enough. Also, the inability to even *TAKE* Heart of Winter means that your climate is not actually going to work that strongly against Indies/Mercs. In practice, Raptor's pitiful priestly ability combined with inability to strongly force Cold means that your territory, especially at the edges where you actually fight, will often not even be in your dominion strongly, so will NOT actually be Cold-3, where you suffer the actual penalty.

I've put together a mod with all the above except the cold restriction (which can't currently be modded), but I don't have a place to host it. If there is any interest I will submit it to Illwinter or see if I can get it hosted somewhere.

Actually, the cold preferences of Caelum *CAN* be modded. This was done back when Caelum was bugged and preferred heat-3 instead of cold-3, and so Catquiet publicized his "Cold Caelum Mod" fixing this.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
I agree with many suggestions, particularly about raven guard, but there are really some themes in worse need. There is basicly no reason to take Barbarian Kings at the moment, and serious disadvantages. Serpent Cult is a pale shadow of basic Pythium. Raptor theme is not that bad, just a theme of one of the most high-powered nations.

Raptor Caelum is Pretty Awful. The only reason it doesn't get very much love and attention right now is because Caelum is already a strong nation and the fact that one of its themes suck cannot necessarily be viewed as an immense drawback: If somebody wants to play it as a handicap, the option is there.

Serpent Cult is "Meh". It's not the most awful thing there is, but it doesn't stack up to stock Pythium. That's not a huge problem, for the same reason, though: Pythium is already a very strong nation.

TC, on the other hand, is a marginal nation in any theme, and BK does nothing to alleviate this condition. The entire nation could probably use some love.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
(270 gold for a Holy-2 priest - ok, he's also a pretty good mage, but in terms of priest power for your money, awful).

Why do people want priestly power on their mages at all? Why do people want powerful priests at all really? Being sacred is good. Being a priest and a mage is not, since you pay more for abilities you can't use at the same time and less power on the battlefield.

[Sheap]

The obvious use for powerful priests is to cast Fanaticism.

However, I hate mixed mage/priests. They drive me up the wall. It's basically just a way of making the mage more expensive.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Sheap:
However, I hate mixed mage/priests. They drive me up the wall. It's basically just a way of making the mage more expensive.

Hey, buy one for the price of two, and get one free!

[Kristoffer O]

Chris: We would be glad to post your mod.

All: agreed, raptor theme is rather weak, as is BK.

[JJ_Colorado]

Well,

I'm certainly no expert but I just saw the Caelum Raptor theme absolutely dominate a 15(?) player game on Mosehansen. Maltrease won the game by a HUGE margin - it was never really in doubt after about turn 35 or so I would say. The theme can't be _that_ bad. Caelum is pretty good anyway.

John

[Maltrease]

Thanks for the compliment, but that was base Caelium not Raptors.